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Tell me more about "fee knobs"

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Guest Dizer
2 hours ago, tulo said:

I'm making question exactly because I'm not an expert.

So I can learn more ;). Now everybody reading this topic knows more about rippleD....

Another question @nikb: searching in tec errors I noticed there is not an error for a fee that is too low. This make me think that once the transaction is relayed from a local node (so with that node policy for the fee and load) to the network, the consensus can't block the transaction for the fee too low. Can you say a few words about this? Is the fee escalation only local?

There is a difference between asking questions for knowledge's sake and making accusations and injecting your own negative interpretation. I've watched you do that in several posts. While I welcome this discussion and I also learned from it, I can't let you just claim innocence without someone calling you out on it.

That is all I'm going to say about this in this thread. Feel free to have the last word.

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3 hours ago, tulo said:

Well, tecFAILED_PROCESSING can occur if RippleCalc is taking too many passes to find the payment path, so if you tuned  PAYMENT_MAX_LOOPS (as the fee are tuned differently) it may occur than all RL servers return tecFAILED_PROCESSING while my validator with different parameters accept the transaction.

This is just an example, but I'm not very expert, but I'm sure there are conditions that are hardware-dependent, fee-dependent or parameters-dependent that can justify an apparently failed transaction. So not reproducible by just replaying ledgers and transactions.

You may not be "very expert" but I do have to admit, you are a fairly well versed troll.

Thanks nikb for taking your valuable time to explain all of that in such detail.

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1 hour ago, Dizer said:

There is a difference between asking questions for knowledge's sake and making accusations and injecting your own negative interpretation. I've watched you do that in several posts. While I welcome this discussion and I also learned from it, I can't let you just claim innocence without someone calling you out on it.

That is all I'm going to say about this in this thread. Feel free to have the last word.

I behave like that because I'm still skeptical about the decentralization part, and we often doesn't have proper answer (of course they are not obligated to answer all questions :)) from RL. Exactly as this fee stuff. They said "the code is exactly the released" and then it wasn't.

About the fee problem I wanted to have things clear, I tried to have clarifications on the official forum and I never had an answer (maybe because it is a delicate question). Let's see if I can clarify here.

The question is: is the fee escalation only local and the consensus can only discard transactions with fee lower than minimum fee (0.01 XRP)? What's the error returned by rippled (ter or/and tec) in case of the fee in the transaction is lower than minimum? @nikb @Vinnie @JoelKatz (thanks guys to take time answering on this forum).

Edited by tulo

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1 hour ago, tulo said:

I behave like that because I'm still skeptical about the decentralization part, and we often doesn't have proper answer (of course they are not obligated to answer all questions :)) from RL. Exactly as this fee stuff. They said "the code is exactly the released" and then it wasn't.

About the fee problem I wanted to have things clear, I tried to have clarifications on the official forum and I never had an answer (maybe because it is a delicate question). Let's see if I can clarify here.

The question is: is the fee escalation only local and the consensus can only discard transactions with fee lower than minimum fee (0.01 XRP)? What's the error returned by rippled (ter or/and tec) in case of the fee in the transaction is lower than minimum? @nikb @Vinnie @JoelKatz (thanks guys to take time answering on this forum).

For my part you did a good job. If you've question, ask them, even if it may sound dumb. It's always an answer to be dumb, never the question. As long as you do not understand the answer, keep asking until you're satisfied on the response. It will help both the users AND Ripple. By asking this kind of questions, common users will better understand Ripple and on the other side, RIpple the company, is given a chance to better defend and/or explain those points that might be clear for them (and other smart guys), but not for the less geeky followers. Asking questions, meant to become a better clarification cannot be seen as FUD or troll....

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Guest
8 hours ago, tulo said:

The question is: is the fee escalation only local and the consensus can only discard transactions with fee lower than minimum fee (0.01 XRP)? What's the error returned by rippled (ter or/and tec) in case of the fee in the transaction is lower than minimum? @nikb @Vinnie @JoelKatz (thanks guys to take time answering on this forum).

There is an error that you might want to look at:

telINSUF_FEE_P, The Fee from the transaction is not high enough to meet the server’s currenttransaction cost requirement, which is derived from its load level.

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8 hours ago, tulo said:

I behave like that because I'm still skeptical about the decentralization part, and we often doesn't have proper answer (of course they are not obligated to answer all questions :)) from RL. Exactly as this fee stuff. They said "the code is exactly the released" and then it wasn't.

If we said that - and I don't know that we did - it would have been true at the time. The validators were running the public code prior to the introduction of the fee knob code - which was announced on the forums - and even now, with the fee knob, the validators are running code that does not affect transaction processing.

 

9 hours ago, tulo said:

The question is: is the fee escalation only local and the consensus can only discard transactions with fee lower than minimum fee (0.01 XRP)? What's the error returned by rippled (ter or/and tec) in case of the fee in the transaction is lower than minimum? @nikb @Vinnie @JoelKatz (thanks guys to take time answering on this forum).

Consensus is designed in such a way so that if a transaction A could have been included in ledger X but did not make it through consensus because it did not get enough votes, then it will be included in ledger X+1.

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9 hours ago, nikb said:

Consensus is designed in such a way so that if a transaction A could have been included in ledger X but did not make it through consensus because it did not get enough votes, then it will be included in ledger X+1.

This is exactly what I mean. This is not the answer to my question.

@tomxcs that is a local error. I want to know the ter or TEC (if it exists bit it doesn't seem so).

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3 hours ago, tulo said:

This is exactly what I mean. This is not the answer to my question.

@tomxcs that is a local error. I want to know the ter or TEC (if it exists bit it doesn't seem so).

Yes, and you ask if the fee escalation is local, which is why I suggested that error. It seems like the appropriate error if the fee escalation is local based on its description.

 

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1 minute ago, tomxcs said:

Yes, and you ask if the fee escalation is local, which is why I suggested that error. It seems like the appropriate error if the fee escalation is local based on its description.

 

Yeah, I already know that there is a local policy, but I'm more interested in the global policy ;)
Thanks anyway.

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Guest Vinnie

tulo seems genuinely interested, not coming across as a troll.

Edited by Vinnie

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On 1/3/2016 at 8:51 AM, tulo said:

The question is: is the fee escalation only local and the consensus can only discard transactions with fee lower than minimum fee (0.01 XRP)? What's the error returned by rippled (ter or/and tec) in case of the fee in the transaction is lower than minimum? @nikb @Vinnie @JoelKatz (thanks guys to take time answering on this forum).

There are several different cases and it's not clear which case you're asking about. There are at least three core cases:

1 ) Transaction received from client.

2 ) Transaction received from peer.

3 ) Transaction included in consensus set.

And there are at four fee insufficiency cases:

A ) Fee is less than network fee.

B ) Fee is between network fee and relay fee.

C ) Account balance cannot pay fee.

D ) We are generating a client locally and the required local fee exceeds the maximum fee multiplier allowed.

I think you're asking about 1A, which is telINSUF_FEE_P. It's a local error because the first check is whether the fee meets the required local relay fee, which is local. So 1B does the same thing.

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56 minutes ago, JoelKatz said:

There are several different cases and it's not clear which case you're asking about. There are at least three core cases:

1 ) Transaction received from client.

2 ) Transaction received from peer.

3 ) Transaction included in consensus set.

And there are at four fee insufficiency cases:

A ) Fee is less than network fee.

B ) Fee is between network fee and relay fee.

C ) Account balance cannot pay fee.

D ) We are generating a client locally and the required local fee exceeds the maximum fee multiplier allowed.

I think you're asking about 1A, which is telINSUF_FEE_P. It's a local error because the first check is whether the fee meets the required local relay fee, which is local. So 1B does the same thing.

My question was about if my local rippled (to which I submit my transaction) pass the relay fee test, so that the transaction is relayed to the network but then the fee is less than network fee. Do I still receive telINSUF_FEE_P?

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Guest Vinnie
7 hours ago, tulo said:

My question was about if my local rippled (to which I submit my transaction) pass the relay fee test, so that the transaction is relayed to the network but then the fee is less than network fee. Do I still receive telINSUF_FEE_P?

I doubt it. You need to monitor the ledger stream and see if your transaction makes it into the ledger (it won't). This is part of "reliable transaction submission" (https://ripple.com/build/reliable-transaction-submission/)

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5 hours ago, Vinnie said:

I doubt it. You need to monitor the ledger stream and see if your transaction makes it into the ledger (it won't). This is part of "reliable transaction submission" (https://ripple.com/build/reliable-transaction-submission/)

So @nikb was lying :)
RL owning all validators could reprogram them to drop transactions received by peers based on whatever parameter (for example all JED transactions) and justify the drop with an high fee, without any proof in the ledger of what happened. I'm I right?

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Guest
9 minutes ago, tulo said:

So @nikb was lying :)

I don't think so... In your hypothetical example, the Tx has already been relayed by your local rippled and telINSUF_FEE_P is a local error. 

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