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Company and decentralization


tulo
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24 minutes ago, lizshadehdg said:

And who is taking control of flare foundation? Who made the decision to burn the exfi the flare foundation will receive?  Who made the decision that flare foundation cannot delegate to FTSOs? Can Hugo Philion decide what to do the fund of this foundation?

68D98EC1-F61D-4F0E-BDA5-6581B997F172.thumb.jpeg.968809e56d5b306e6a86fb2beb026824.jpeg

You're upset that they're burning the coins? Would you rather they dump them?

As I recall the Flare Foundation will become a DAO after Flare launches, not before.

Personally, I don't think I'm fit to decide what's best for the Flare Network, so I don't see why it's good for a million of me to decide. I get why DAOs are popular as an attempt to get around regulations, but I really don't see why people think a whole bunch of idiots make for better leaders than a few people who who have actually proven their leadership ability.

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8 minutes ago, Ripley said:

Until governance is enabled on Songbird, Flare Networks (Hugo) makes the decisions. 

After that, if the Foundation does something the community doesn’t like, the community can dissolve it. 

Thank you, that's interesting. So how can the community dissolve the Foundation’s decision? 

 

9 minutes ago, Ripley said:

It is not Flare Foundation’s fault that it was counted in the snapshot.

I agree and that's not what I meant.

 

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7 minutes ago, lizshadehdg said:

Thank you, that's interesting. So how can the community dissolve the Foundation’s decision? 

Amendment process I’d imagine. Those details aren’t available yet but should be made available by MainNet launch. FLR also works as a governance token and you will be able to vote.

Amendments can be proposed by anyone but obviously you need to have a good number of people supporting it first to avoid noise. There is a forum/mechanism being built to allow amendments to be submitted and to allow for constructive discussion. My guess is that this will be GitHub/GitLab based.

Someone has already proposed quadratic voting as a mechanism to avoid leaving whales in perpetual control of the votes and Hugo promised to look into it.

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10 minutes ago, brianwalden said:

You're upset that they're burning the coins? Would you rather they dump them?

Brian this question is irritating because you have completely misunderstood what I meant. Plus this is off this topic. And NO. I'm not upset with them burning their EXFI.

Since you have been very helpful in this forum since I join here. I respect you and am willing to spend another 5 minutes to make myself clearer. 

15 minutes ago, brianwalden said:

Personally, I don't think I'm fit to decide what's best for the Flare Network, so I don't see why it's good for a million of me to decide. I get why DAOs are popular as an attempt to get around regulations, but I really don't see why people think a whole bunch of idiots make for better leaders than a few people who who have actually proven their leadership ability.

I don't think I'm fit to decide either. This doesn't mean I don't have the right to ask and know about what's going on.

There are so many ‘“idiots” because they don't know enough, don't bother to ask and complains whenever things don't go the way they want.  

This topic by Tulo is a very good opportunity for the community to learn more about Flare. Why attack people who ask questions? Idiots will never grow smarter without questions being answered.

BTW, what is DAO?

 

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14 minutes ago, Ripley said:

Amendment process I’d imagine. Those details aren’t available yet but should be made available by MainNet launch. FLR also works as a governance token and you will be able to vote.

Amendments can be proposed by anyone but obviously you need to have a good number of people supporting it first to avoid noise. There is a forum/mechanism being built to allow amendments to be submitted and to allow for constructive discussion. My guess is that this will be GitHub/GitLab based.

Someone has already proposed quadratic voting as a mechanism to avoid leaving whales in perpetual control of the votes and Hugo promised to look into it.

Forgot to mention, but there are some details available around the process. Proposing an amendment will cost FLR and it is likely that so will discussing about it and voting, though it is unlikely to be cost prohibitive.

And here is the initial test proposal for Songbird Governance if you want to get a peek at the possible process - https://github.com/flare-foundation/STP/blob/main/STPs/STP_0.md

Edit: It looks like they might be using a Gnosis Safe for governance but I could be wrong. See https://songbird-explorer.flare.network/address/0x51e40f275feecA0A859CdA9D499afBcBe3804B71/transactions#txs interacting with the supply contract. More details on Gnosis here - https://gnosis-safe.io/ 

Note: I only just looked it up so I don’t know how Gnosis works etc. I’ll read up ahead of the main net launch.

Edited by Ripley
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5 minutes ago, lizshadehdg said:

Brian this question is irritating because you have completely misunderstood what I meant. Plus this is off this topic. And NO. I'm not upset with them burning their EXFI.

Since you have been very helpful in this forum since I join here. I respect you and am willing to spend another 5 minutes to make myself clearer. 

I don't think I'm fit to decide either. This doesn't mean I don't have the right to ask and know about what's going on.

There are so many ‘“idiots” because they don't know enough, don't bother to ask and complains whenever things don't go the way they want.  

This topic by Tulo is a very good opportunity for the community to learn more about Flare. Why attack people who ask questions? Idiots will never grow smarter without questions being answered.

BTW, what is DAO?

 

DOA stands for decentralized autonomous organization. The idea is that there's no one central form of leadership like with traditional businesses, but the organization is totally decentralized and run by all members as a whole. In defense of DOAs, they don't necessarily need to be run by pure democracy.

I'm sorry, I think I misinterpreted your question, probably because I spend too much time on Twitter where the usual argument on everything is, "why didn't we get to decide?"

For the record, I like idiots (I like myself afterall). I think intelligence has the same moral weight as height, which is pretty close to nothing. I'm just skeptical of this idea in crypto that decentralization should mean total democracy.

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7 minutes ago, brianwalden said:

I'm just skeptical of this idea in crypto that decentralization should mean total democracy.

IMHO, human being had a very long history of suffering from centralization. The drawbacks of decentralization is yet to be found.  I’m not from the US and I personally don’t think democracy is for everybody on this planet. I could be wrong. 

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16 hours ago, Ripley said:

Here is an illustration of the distribution. Details should be in the paper.

image.png.0745b2ccbcc2c27e1f8aa613fba16642.png
 

Note: this changed since then to accommodate DOGE etc. That came from the foundation reserves I think

Edit: Some references here - https://www.thedefistandard.com/posts/flare-networks-spark-flr-token-distribution/

What I'm scared of is that as far as I remember there wasn't a Flare Limited mentionend anywhere in the whitepapers, nor in the original blog.
I only remember a Flare Foundation and I don't rebember any FLR to be distributed to Flare Networks Limited.

Moreover they talk about transparency, but there is not any of this info on their website.
Also the distribution for XRP holders was modified from 45B to 38B. And considering the 5B for LTC it doesn't reach the initially proposed 45B. From the blog:

Quote

So as to maintain the strict minimum 1:1 distribution ratio the distribution amount is therefore increased from the previously stipulated 45,000,000,000 to 45,827,728,412.

 

Basically now Flare Networks + Flare Foundation have 45% of the FLR and SGB. 45%! And unless a real DAO is implemented for Flare Foundation they are in the hand of a couple people.

On top of that Flare Networks is delegating billions of SGB to FTSOs gaining even more SGB and more power.

Another question: are the FLR/SBG given to Flare Foundation (FF) and Flare Networks Limited (FNL) vested? Because normal users will only receive 15% of the tokens initially (of the 43B allocated), meaning that if no vesting period is present for FF and FNL they'll have 87.4% of the initial circulating supply of FLR.

Why don't they put a clear tokenomics page in the website?

EDIT: my bad, the Flare Networks Unlimited was mentioned in the whitepaper with the 25B allocation. In my head I was 100% sure all the unallocated FLR/SGB would go to Flare Foundation.

Edited by tulo
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2 hours ago, tulo said:

What I'm scared of is that as far as I remember there wasn't a Flare Limited mentionend anywhere in the whitepapers, nor in the original blog.
I only remember a Flare Foundation and I don't rebember any FLR to be distributed to Flare Networks Limited.

Moreover they talk about transparency, but there is not any of this info on their website.
Also the distribution for XRP holders was modified from 45B to 38B. And considering the 5B for LTC it doesn't reach the initially proposed 45B. From the blog:

 

Basically now Flare Networks + Flare Foundation have 45% of the FLR and SGB. 45%! And unless a real DAO is implemented for Flare Foundation they are in the hand of a couple people.

On top of that Flare Networks is delegating billions of SGB to FTSOs gaining even more SGB and more power.

Another question: are the FLR/SBG given to Flare Foundation (FF) and Flare Networks Limited (FNL) vested? Because normal users will only receive 15% of the tokens initially (of the 43B allocated), meaning that if no vesting period is present for FF and FNL they'll have 87.4% of the initial circulating supply of FLR.

Why don't they put a clear tokenomics page in the website?

EDIT: my bad, the Flare Networks Unlimited was mentioned in the whitepaper with the 25B allocation. In my head I was 100% sure all the unallocated FLR/SGB would go to Flare Foundation.

Just to confirm what you said, I remember Hugo talking about this in interviews. The plan was always to have both the non-profit foundation to basically manage the network after launch and the for-profit company to build ontop of the network. I believe their goal is to be the first FTSO agent.

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3 hours ago, brianwalden said:

I believe their goal is to be the first FTSO agent.

State-connector maybe? And issuer of F-assets.
Yeah I believe they'll be the first. They don't release documentation on how to become one (for now) :rolleyes:

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