SGB Reward Rate - what it means

[Seoulite]

12 minutes ago, PunishmentOfLuxury said:

Slight correction: Neil from FTSO.AU said on Discord that the delegation lock block occurring sometime between Thurs and Sat is not (randomly) chosen until the end of the epoch. There's no way of knowing it until 08.41 UTC Sat.

This is correct, and wise. Literally no one knows when the thing starts, and so no one can take advantage of such knowledge.

[Guest]

Gaming the system knowing the epoch timing is only going to really help in the beginning. 

Known events are just as easy to hedge the other way and I suspect that in the long run, the market will price for it. 

[jbjnr]

11 hours ago, BillyOckham said:

The smart contract that pays the rewards perhaps can more quickly read and write an internal dataset of balances and ratios and cumulative reward built at the time of the lock-in and updated per round than it could query the blockchain at the end each of round.

Yes. This is the problem. In principle, every transaction issued by an account might alter the total WSGB in that account (and destination accounts) and so the smart contract would essentially need to track every transaction on every wallet all the time to monitor the WSGB amounts continuously. The original whitepaper didn't have any of this guff about voting/reward epochs and clearly things have morphed considerably from the original ideas. I like the idea that you can sell on Sat, but back Thu morning and try to manipulate the prices in between - Let's hope this results in more incentives for FTSO feeds to be gamed as well.

Does anyone know what's going on with the 51 nests problem that is being mentioned on discord? I can't wade through all that, but it looks like transitioning to the next phase of flare finance is being held up by non-closed nests ....

[BillyOckham]

21 minutes ago, jbjnr said:

Does anyone know what's going on with the 51 nests problem that is being mentioned on discord?

Oh wow.  Just when I think I might have a handle on little bits of this stuff some completely new-to-me term gets mentioned.   

 

Nests?  Non-closed nests?    Sigh,  I’m too old for this shit.   

[BillyOckham]

26 minutes ago, jbjnr said:

51 nests problem

Holy crap.  Googling 51 nests gets me interested in migrating birds.  It might have just turned me into a Twitcher.   

 

[brianwalden]

3 hours ago, jbjnr said:

Yes. This is the problem. In principle, every transaction issued by an account might alter the total WSGB in that account (and destination accounts) and so the smart contract would essentially need to track every transaction on every wallet all the time to monitor the WSGB amounts continuously. The original whitepaper didn't have any of this guff about voting/reward epochs and clearly things have morphed considerably from the original ideas. I like the idea that you can sell on Sat, but back Thu morning and try to manipulate the prices in between - Let's hope this results in more incentives for FTSO feeds to be gamed as well.

Does anyone know what's going on with the 51 nests problem that is being mentioned on discord? I can't wade through all that, but it looks like transitioning to the next phase of flare finance is being held up by non-closed nests ....

I haven't followed the details, but I wonder how they backed themselves into this corner. Usually, you design a smart contract so that if you come out with a new one that works differently, the old one can just sit there waiting for people to withdraw their funds. There's no need to get everyone to migrate over to the new one.

[RambeauTeasebox]

59 minutes ago, brianwalden said:

I haven't followed the details, but I wonder how they backed themselves into this corner. Usually, you design a smart contract so that if you come out with a new one that works differently, the old one can just sit there waiting for people to withdraw their funds. There's no need to get everyone to migrate over to the new one.

I haven't tried Flare Finance yet, so I'm also not sure what this is all about. But I suppose this illustrates the risks of participating in (and the utility of) the canary network?

[Seoulite]

8 hours ago, RambeauTeasebox said:

I haven't tried Flare Finance yet, so I'm also not sure what this is all about. But I suppose this illustrates the risks of participating in (and the utility of) the canary network?

Flare Finance (which is not the same as Flare) is a much smaller, much riskier project than Flare itself. I have not been participating in any of the Flare Finance experiments that they are running, and won't for a while until things are up and running. Probably not until Flare itself launches. 

AFAIK Songbird itself is performing more or less as expected. We await the launch of the F-asset system. That is the next big step. 

[jbjnr]

On 10/7/2021 at 2:39 PM, Seoulite said:

It will be interesting to see if this creates a kind of rhythm in the network and the prices.

Well, I've bitten the bullet. It's Sat morning, I've claimed all my rewards from last week and I've started earning for this week. I unwrapped everything, sent it all to bitrue and traded it for xrp.

If XRP moons or SGB tanks, then all is well. If SGB moons and/or XRP tanks, then I am happy to have more xrp than I used to, but we'll see next Thurs morning what the state of play is. I've now sold 100% of my SGB (less  couple of coins to keep 'just in case' for transactions costs - (but still earning 1-2% on my sold stash!)).

[The 50% of SGB I traded for XRP in week 1, is relatively speaking worth 60% more than the 50% I just sold, so I don't feel much pain about losing the rest of my SGB and I can still buy back prior to 5th Nov at these prices without any loss]

[Seoulite]

So it now says A FTSO is over the 10% threshold. Can anyone remind me what this means in practice? The voting power is not increased but the rewards are being divided among more people?

[BillyOckham]

30 minutes ago, Seoulite said:

So it now says A FTSO is over the 10% threshold. Can anyone remind me what this means in practice? The voting power is not increased but the rewards are being divided among more people?

Yes I think that is the correct interpretation.  
 

So if the reward per 100 for that particular FTSO was 2 but only if they have less than maximum voting power, it will be less if oversubscribed.

Those who have delegated to such an “oversubscribed” FTSO will actually only get say 1.9 reward.  The delegator is rewarded according to vote power but only up to 10%.   After that it’s not getting more reward but does have more accounts getting a split.

Edited October 10, 2021 by BillyOckham

[Seoulite]

2 minutes ago, BillyOckham said:

Yes I think that is the correct interpretation.  
 

So if the reward per 100 for that particular FTSO was 2 but only if they have less than maximum voting power, it will be less if oversubscribed.

Those who have delegated to such an “oversubscribed” FTSO will actually only get say 1.9 reward.  The delegator is rewarded according to vote power but only up to 10%.   After that it’s not getting more reward but does have more accounts getting a split.

So the smart move would be to migrate to providers who are doing well but have less delegated? Like a fantasy football league, you need to choose the cheap player who is going to have an awesome game this week, then next week everyone buys him because he did well last week but you got him cheap.

[BillyOckham]

Just now, Seoulite said:

So the smart move would be to migrate to providers who are doing well but have less delegated? Like a fantasy football league, you need to choose the cheap player who is going to have an awesome game this week, then next week everyone buys him because he did well last week but you got him cheap.

Yep.  And factor in the extra week delay and it gets very tricky to chase maximum gain.  As I mentioned a while ago….    sometimes chasing maximum gain is the worst strategy.  But time will tell.

[Seoulite]

19 minutes ago, BillyOckham said:

Yep.  And factor in the extra week delay and it gets very tricky to chase maximum gain.  As I mentioned a while ago….    sometimes chasing maximum gain is the worst strategy.  But time will tell.

On the flare metrics site you can switch between overall and the current epoch, any idea what this means? What are the different values?

[BillyOckham]

49 minutes ago, Seoulite said:

On the flare metrics site you can switch between overall and the current epoch, any idea what this means? What are the different values?

Well I could be wrong but I think it’s that each provider creates a price reading every 4 minutes (??) and then at the end of that round only some (half??) of them get the reward (according to their vote power).

So if they are good at getting it “right” then they get more reward wins.  So  “overall” is their wins averaged across all time, and “this epoch” is just the current one.