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Earning rewards through Songbird (coming very soon)


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30 minutes ago, brianwalden said:

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you can see what they're providing prices for:

https://flaremetrics.io/

They are not providing price feeds for SGB yet. I think the first look we'll get will be from Bitrue tomorrow.

Thanks! That's a nice overview, hadn't seen that yet.

Still wondering if an oracle must provide price for all these assets, or if he can decide to be oracle for one or perhaps a select group of assets.  Checking on FTSO.au it shows only 9 assets vs the 10 in the flaremetrics overview (ETH missing :JC_thinking:?) Maybe that is cause for the differences in yield?

Edited by jn_r
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9 minutes ago, artiom1988 said:

Does anyone know when we can claim the rewards? im using the Bifrost Wallet and it wont allow me to claim. I delegated on Wednesday

Think you need to delegate for a week. Then after that point should be able to claim potentially? 

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17 minutes ago, Mr_Rippling said:

Think you need to delegate for a week. Then after that point should be able to claim potentially? 

Your rewards become available to claim each Saturday. This is the first week of earning rewards so the first time anyone can claim their rewards is this coming Saturday.

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8 hours ago, brianwalden said:

Your rewards become available to claim each Saturday. This is the first week of earning rewards so the first time anyone can claim their rewards is this coming Saturday.

Yes, and from what I’ve read it’s ok to change delegations in the meantime — the Thursday lockins are snapshots, so you’ll continue to earn rewards for your initial choices during the period even if you change them now to get ready for next Thursday.

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11 minutes ago, FTSO_AU said:

The rewards started off promising, but drifted south 24hrs later. We’ve analyzed a lot of data and deployed an algorithm change midnight Sunday, after several hours in the test environment. 

What I like about flare is that there is no incentive to actually quote the correct price - since there isn't a 'correct' price. The only thing FTSO providers aim to do is be in the mid range of quotes. This means that the price quoted may gradually (or rapidly) drift away from the true price and nobody will care as long as all the providers are following each other's biases - it's all about the rewards. Once an offset between the median price and the 'actual' price on exchanges forms, there is no guarantee that they will ever converge.

FTSO.au are 'changing' their algorithm - when those changes/tweaks become additions of epsilons that are derived from previous price quotes and all providers do the same, things could go right off the rails. Anyone got any graphs of oracle derived prices and original exchange price feeds?

EDIT: and when I say "like" in "what I like about flare" - I mean "find entertaining"

Edited by jbjnr
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I understand this is still in a very early phase, and is itself a canary network (only one step up from a test net), but, will the payouts become more frequent, perhaps to something like what Tezos can do with DPoS (Delegated Proof of Stake) which pays out every 2-3 days or so?

I am hoping Flare will have this sort of capability. I was a bit disappointed initially with the arbitrary-seeming reward epochs of SongBird, but I get that SongBird – and obviously Flare – are far more complex networks in some ways. At least in the sense that they have to synchronize three primary system functions (FTSO, state connector, f-asset). 

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46 minutes ago, FTSO_AU said:

We’ll, it actually just ticked over 48hrs, or 2 days, so we’re a long way short of a week, but that’s irrelevant.

Saturday night, 6pm my time was the first time the FTSO was tested in full battle conditions, up until then it was only prices being sent and revealed every 4mins, which we’ve done successfully, and continue to do so.

The rewards started off promising, but drifted south 24hrs later. We’ve analyzed a lot of data and deployed an algorithm change midnight Sunday, after several hours in the test environment. 

The results didn’t head in the direction we’d hoped. Interestingly most other providers rewards also slowed in this period.

Todays been another day of developing some tools to further analyze the data and plan the next move. 

You can expect to see lots of swings in the reward distribution over the coming days and weeks as all providers adjust their services.

If people feel moving to another provider is the best solution for them, then so be it. That will give us the opportunity to see how the vote power cap affects the rewards when they’re diluted among the over subscribed pool.

Its not a sprint, it’s a marathon … and this is exactly what Songbird was designed for, testing our services before being deployed on Flare mainnet.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, appreciate you’re busy, but thanks for explaining what was happening. 
I’ve set my two providers as they were originally , AU and EU and will leave it at that over the next month and see how things level out. Be good to see how all the providers respond to the challenges ahead. 

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45 minutes ago, jbjnr said:

What I like about flare is that there is no incentive to actually quote the correct price - since there isn't a 'correct' price. The only thing FTSO providers aim to do is be in the mid range of quotes. This means that the price quoted may gradually (or rapidly) drift away from the true price and nobody will care as long as all the providers are following each other's biases - it's all about the rewards. Once an offset between the median price and the 'actual' price on exchanges forms, there is no guarantee that they will ever converge.

FTSO.au are 'changing' their algorithm - when those changes/tweaks become additions of epsilons that are derived from previous price quotes and all providers do the same, things could go right off the rails. Anyone got any graphs of oracle derived prices and original exchange price feeds?

EDIT: and when I say "like" in "what I like about flare" - I mean "find entertaining"

You rightly say there is no right price, but you also say it's a problem if the prices diverge from exchanges. How can it be if neither price is right? I think once the F-asset system is running, arbitrage will keep the prices in line with exchanges.

I agree with you that there's an incentive misalignment in the voting reward system and I'm curious to see how it plays out as well. Rewards are paid for the average price, not the most accurate price (which Songbird doesn't know even if it wanted to reward providers for it) and most delegators don't give a fig about prices just which provider pays out the most. Will it just be a minor thing? Or will it cause major problems? I don't think anyone knows, this is why this canary thing was a good idea.

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1 hour ago, jbjnr said:

What I like about flare is that there is no incentive to actually quote the correct price - since there isn't a 'correct' price. The only thing FTSO providers aim to do is be in the mid range of quotes. This means that the price quoted may gradually (or rapidly) drift away from the true price and nobody will care as long as all the providers are following each other's biases - it's all about the rewards. Once an offset between the median price and the 'actual' price on exchanges forms, there is no guarantee that they will ever converge.

FTSO.au are 'changing' their algorithm - when those changes/tweaks become additions of epsilons that are derived from previous price quotes and all providers do the same, things could go right off the rails. Anyone got any graphs of oracle derived prices and original exchange price feeds?

EDIT: and when I say "like" in "what I like about flare" - I mean "find entertaining"

It can fail badly if the oracles use as input the previous price from other oracles. Otherwise if the price prediction is only a function of "real prices" everything should be fine because no positive feedback is in the loop.

But it all depends on the algorithms they are using.

What I'm more afraid is that some oracles could collude only to get the best rewards. A coalition of 4-5 oracles could shift significantly the price and the rewards IMO.

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