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Roborovskii

[Evidence] Dismissing the myth that XRP will not be used by Banks

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4 hours ago, Hodor said:

Get off your high horse.  Pointing out a pattern to postings here actually is based in fact, and is done in fact-finding in courtroom on a regular basis.  We're all adults here (I think) and can take a few shots. 

I stand by the fact that his statement regarding Vinnie and tulo pushing FUD is inaccurate. There are real barriers to adoption and one slide that says right on it [offering services (planned)] does little to dispel that.  And yes the word becoming was a bit snobby, but I think you would agree (as I have never witnessed you taking intentional shots at people) that for the most part what sets XRP Chat apart is the quality of conversation and a general willingness to tolerate alternate options. I see that changing which is fine, but that doesn't mean we should try to maintain it. 

@Roborovskii and I agree on something really important. There's still a lot of FUD out there and it's part of our responsibility to counter-act it. 

We just define FUD slightly different. 

P.S. What kind of horse are you on? ;) 

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21 hours ago, Roborovskii said:

1. Bitcoin has higher liquidity but no govt acceptance, and is slow. Could there be a clone of RCL that could take over this role? Yes. Are there any signs of it? No. Is there a team to support this clone of RCL? No.

...yet which currency facilitates more payments today, XRP or BTC?

21 hours ago, Roborovskii said:

2. It is harder to assume that they have a common trustline, than to assume that they don't. Take for example a bank consortium from India wanting to bridge to SBI in Japan. What will be their bridge currency then? BTC? BTC issued by whom? Poloniex? Would India's consortium trust Poloniex? Would SBI? How about then India central bank's IOU as the bridge currency? Would SBI trust that? It is much harder to work out a common trustline than the reverse.

The Bank of Japan trusts the Reserve Bank of India right now (http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=102007), why would they all of a sudden not?

21 hours ago, Roborovskii said:

. RCL and XRP on it is open source. It's continuation doesn't necessarily depend on RIpple. Even Vinnie has explained this fact.

Notice you had to say "necessarily". I agree and understand. Today it is very dependent therefore if Ripple ceased to exist, XRP's future would be uncertain (notice I'm not saying doomed).

21 hours ago, Roborovskii said:

4. FED issued USD on RCL. Would China really want more of that? Or would they prefer a native RCL bridge currency that is open source, which isn't dependent on the whims and fancies of a populist president? Direct ILP swaps? Then there would be no bridge currency in the first place. Who will be the intermediary of trust??

China doesn't need more of it to facilitate payments. The fact they hold $1T of U.S. debt shows that they DO trust it. As much as China has it's concerns about the U.S. you think they would trust XRP (which is not WITHOUT counter-party risk) more than USD. They would be swapping fiat directly, like they do today. Because it's a "swap" no bridge currency is needed. Just like trading EUR and USD. XRP isn't a requirement. No intermediary of trust is necessary because atomic swaps are trustless. All of your points above seem to assume the Ripple enabled financial system won't look anything like it does today, while Ripple has exactly positioned itself to capitalize on a digitized version of the financial system that looks a lot like it does today (Chris Larsen has said this many times). 

22 hours ago, Roborovskii said:

5. It is precisely the FUD and misunderstanding of XRP's adoption that requires clarification and discussion. But instead of discussions to clarify understanding, FUD is simply smeared onto it due to information that is inaccessible. That is why this post was put up in the first place. At least to clear up ONE piece of FUD amongst many others. Do you not think implying "Ripple could steal your XRPs, or even generate more"; is FUD?

Again, there's uncertainty regarding XRP's adoption, you agreed to that. That means a thorough conversation should involve a discussion about that Uncertainty (the U in FUD). You're treating one of the primary contributors to RCL (Vinnie) and probably one of the largest individual contributors to RCL liquidity (tulo runs bots who usedo to produce $200k in trades per day) as if they're trollbox FUDers. If tulo thought Ripple was going to dilute his XRP do you think he would hold them? No. The point is that Ripple CAN do it. This naturally creates more uncertainty. Even Ripple knows it's important to decentralize (see Evan Swartz' epicenter interview). They're just waiting for the right time. 

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13 minutes ago, Xi195 said:

...yet which currency facilitates more payments today, XRP or BTC?

This goes back to the same argument. I have to agree to disagree with you. XRP is superior with its tech, focused team, govt/legal compliance and current plans for depth and liquidity of XRP markets. While we look to the present for our bearings, we need to move forward to progress.

 

19 minutes ago, Xi195 said:

The Bank of Japan trusts the Reserve Bank of India right now (http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=102007), why would they all of a sudden not?

It would be more effective in terms of cost & time to hold a bridge currency that addresses the needs for ALL currency pairs, than to craft multiple bilateral swaps for each trade partner.

 

23 minutes ago, Xi195 said:

China doesn't need more of it to facilitate payments. The fact they hold $1T of U.S. debt shows that they DO trust it. As much as China has it's concerns about the U.S. you think they would trust XRP (which is not WITHOUT counter-party risk) more than USD. They would be swapping fiat directly, like they do today. Because it's a "swap" no bridge currency is needed. Just like trading EUR and USD. XRP isn't a requirement. No intermediary of trust is necessary because atomic swaps are trustless. All of your points above seem to assume the Ripple enabled financial system won't look anything like it does today, while Ripple has exactly positioned itself to capitalize on a digitized version of the financial system that looks a lot like it does today (Chris Larsen has said this many times). 

China has for years been looking to reduce the amount of U.S debt through multiple overseas investments and acquisitions. While they may try not to step on the eagles toes by going overboard, a switch over to IoV would present a great opportunity to get themselves out of this sticky situation by offloading some of it into digital assets.

Atomic swaps are in technical terms "trustless", because both parties already have a bilateral trust agreement between them. But this is besides the point. We are talking about 2 parties with no trust in the first place. Therefore the need for a bridge currency.

Capitalizing on a digitized version of the financial system today - in terms of functionality. IoV will be vastly different under the hood.

 

36 minutes ago, Xi195 said:

Again, there's uncertainty regarding XRP's adoption, you agreed to that. That means a thorough conversation should involve a discussion about that Uncertainty (the U in FUD). You're treating one of the primary contributors to RCL (Vinnie) and probably one of the largest individual contributors to RCL liquidity (tulo runs bots who usedo to produce $200k in trades per day) as if they're trollbox FUDers. If tulo thought Ripple was going to dilute his XRP do you think he would hold them? No. The point is that Ripple CAN do it. This naturally creates more uncertainty. Even Ripple knows it's important to decentralize (see Evan Swartz' epicenter interview). They're just waiting for the right time. 

The certainty of XRP's adoption draws nearer. I am not sure if you were in the Zerpbox, but there was a sharing of SBI's progress with their virtual currency exchange and PoS services to the retail sector in Japan (which rides on RCL). I won't go into the Vinnie and Tulo issue and choose to leave that behind. Let's hope for the pieces of the puzzle to come closer in the coming months.

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44 minutes ago, Xi195 said:

...yet which currency facilitates more payments today, XRP or BTC?

The always recurring argument.... I live in a Western country (Belgium) and I do not know ONE store or market where they know let be there accept Bitcoin. And if I should find one commerce accepting BTC (guess somewhere in some dark corners there might be a few) well than I might be wondering about what they sell and/or about the books and figures. Both dark, illegal or ugly I suppose...

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1 minute ago, kanaas said:

The always recurring argument.... I live in a Western country (Belgium) and I do not know ONE store or market where they know let be there accept Bitcoin. And if I should find one commerce accepting BTC (guess somewhere in some dark corners there might be a few) well than I might be wondering about what they sell and/or about the books and figures. Both dark, illegal or ugly I suppose...

This makes me think of an interesting point- there are several 'currencies' that are not used for daily transactions. From financial specifics like Special Drawing Rights and treasury bills all the way down to casino chips and air miles. Not all are accepted at all locations, but they are all deemed to hold value, and value that can often be exchanged directly to fiat.

The idea of having co-existing currencies in our lives is already real even if people don't see it as such. I think a lot of future successful cryptos will be similar to the above mentioned examples.

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8 minutes ago, Mercury said:

This makes me think of an interesting point- there are several 'currencies' that are not used for daily transactions. From financial specifics like Special Drawing Rights and treasury bills all the way down to casino chips and air miles. Not all are accepted at all locations, but they are all deemed to hold value, and value that can often be exchanged directly to fiat.

The idea of having co-existing currencies in our lives is already real even if people don't see it as such. I think a lot of future successful cryptos will be similar to the above mentioned examples.

They all offer some binding to the issuer as a form of loyalty. Naked BTC can never replace this and I also do not believe other coins to do so. Ethereum or Ripple IOU's are a much better solution for such than Bitcoin.

Edited by kanaas

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1 hour ago, kanaas said:

The always recurring argument.... I live in a Western country (Belgium) and I do not know ONE store or market where they know let be there accept Bitcoin.

I'm not arguing that Bitcoin is being used for retail remittance. I agree that's a bad argument. Bitcoin is however being used for cross-border payments, XRP's primary use case, as exemplified here:https://cointelegraph.com/news/cross-border-payments-settled-via-bitcoin-increase-almost-tenfold-in-2016. This chart was 9 months ago. I'd be curious to know where it is today.

I think you could make an easy argument that Bitcoin is facilitating more cross-border payments than XRP today. Does anyone have evidence that XRP facilitated $40M in cross border payments last July? I'm clear on the reasons XRP is technically superior and better suited for this use. I'm just trying to show that Bitcoin has been able to survive, in fact thrive, despite many of its challenges due to the fact that it has dramatically more liquidity.

Edited by Xi195

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1 minute ago, Xi195 said:

I'm not arguing that Bitcoin is being used for retail remittance. I agree that's a bad argument. Bitcoin is however being used for cross-border payments, XRP's primary use case, as exemplified here:https://cointelegraph.com/news/cross-border-payments-settled-via-bitcoin-increase-almost-tenfold-in-2016

I think you could make an easy argument that Bitcoin is facilitating more cross-border payments than XRP today. Does anyone have evidence that XRP facilitated $40M in cross border payments last July? I'm clear on the reasons XRP is technically superior and better suited for this use. I'm just trying to show that Bitcoin has been able to survive, in fact thrive, despite many of its challenges due to the fact that it has dramatically more liquidity.

I still wonder what those Xborder payments in most case have to serve for. A few days ago I happen to hear a story on a local radiostation about a lady running a small business. She told how her PC's were hacked and the disks being encrypted. She didn't find a specialist to help her out and the only she could do was to pay the blackmailer a certain amount in .... Bitcoin... to decrypt her disks. Just one example of those Xborder "retail" business .... I suppose that there are besides this one example a lot of other cross border "deals" that are not so wel suited for PayPal, Visa, American Express, Mastercard, Moneygram, Earthport, .... Unbanked? LMAO.... Unbanked do not use Bitcoin... After all what would they do with it to buy them the daily stuff.....

In short: it's just for the dark markets .... local and globally. Those not seeing it are blind or living in the dark themselves....

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20 minutes ago, kanaas said:

In short: it's just for the dark markets .... local and globally. Those not seeing it are blind or living in the dark themselves....

Clearly bitcoin has nefarious uses. If you don't see how companies like BitPesa are utilizing Bitcoin liquidity in innovative and honest ways, you're missing the bigger picture.
Read the article if you have a chance. They're not quantifying international extortion.

Edited by Xi195

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Roborovskii, regarding what you call 'FUD'. There is always a certain amount of FUD present when you are long term holding something as risky as XRP.

Have you ever read the list of risk factors that public companies post in their yearly 10-K reports? It's usually many pages filled with what you would call FUD. Sometimes some of the FUD actually materializes into a big problem, and sometimes the problem wipes out the asset, I've held things to the other side of such events so I know that very well. 

It serves no purpose to try to hide risks under the carpet, it does not make them go away. If outside investors see us sitting here and dreaming of XRP = $100 all day, they will reason that it means the asset is priced too high due to speculative demand and leave it alone. You also have a better shot of making correct decisions when you understand what the risks are.

Edited by corak

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2 hours ago, corak said:

Roborovskii, regarding what you call 'FUD'. There is always a certain amount of FUD present when you are long term holding something as risky as XRP.

Have you ever read the list of risk factors that public companies post in their yearly 10-K reports? It's usually many pages filled with what you would call FUD. Sometimes some of the FUD actually materializes into a big problem, and sometimes the problem wipes out the asset, I've held things to the other side of such events so I know that very well. 

It serves no purpose to try to hide risks under the carpet, it does not make them go away. If outside investors see us sitting here and dreaming of XRP = $100 all day, they will reason that it means the asset is priced too high due to speculative demand and leave it alone. You also have a better shot of making correct decisions when you understand what the risks are.

Yes there will be areas of concerns or even weakness. I am not advocating for sweeping things under the rug. In fact I do hope good questions will be asked. What is being cleared up are the obvious lies, half-truths and innuendos. These are either perpetuated intentionally for nefarious reasons, or unintentionally due to ignorance. Either way, they need to be corrected, especially during the lows. These are the times that new specs/investors need to be reassured of the potential and current progress, and not drop their positions due to unfounded fears. RCL/XRP is like a sapling just at its point of sprouting after years below the surface. With so much potential and a need for developing a firm base of liquidity, we really shouldn't shear off the young buds even before they get a chance to sprout. The time to trim the stray branches of hype and mania are further down the road, and we will know it when naysayers form the minority rather than the majority in the crypto community space.

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Despite the frustrations, I thank you guys for a very interesting conversation! I found myself on both sides of this conversation.

Side note: Could we lay off the groupie/fanboy bullshit, please?  I assume I fall into this category because I am not a science boy or a developer? All this does is discourage others from participating and despite your ingenious comprehension of Ripple, most of you could not explain Ripple on a level that others understand. This community wouldn't be what it is without the average person coming here to cheer on and learn more about Ripple and they're the audience that will spread the word on a level that others may understand. Thanks :D
 

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Despite the frustrations, I thank you guys for a very interesting conversation! I found myself on both sides of this conversation.

Side note: Could we lay off the groupie/fanboy bullshit, please?  I assume I fall into this category because I am not a science boy or a developer? All this does is discourage others from participating and despite your ingenious comprehension of Ripple, most of you could not explain Ripple on a level that others understand. This community wouldn't be what it is without the average person coming here to cheer on and learn more about Ripple and they're the audience that will spread the word on a level that others may understand. Thanks

 

Second

 

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Interesting points on both sides of the OPINION.  

There's always going to be resistance to great potential, and it's healthy to bring attention to all sides even when it might not 'sound' particularly positive. I'm hearing be cautious, don't put all your eggs in one basket, which is always good advice no matter how promising something is. Id use the same principle with gold, and so on.

On the other hand, I think anyone can see the incredible potential in this product / service... One that you can be sure big banking is taking more than a serious look at. Does anyone here honestly believe they'd be able to make the headway they have if the company were lacking integrity? If they manipulated the market, they would be finished period.

They've hired the right people for new partnerships professionally, and relationships ..Who can guess which of the two matters more? 

Look at a few of the key characters, and you'll see quite quickly Ripple is ready for what's coming.

The recent spike, was a new beginning of sorts but who can blame anyone for the following correction given the long road to this point... 

A little trust in the people running this venture, forget what might not happen, forget the possibility of them manipulating anything and whatever else you're worried might happen.. your investment should be within your means of course, but as soon as everyone has a little faith and stays in for even a short extended period watch what happens! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Xi195 said:

P.S. What kind of horse are you on?

Lol @Xi195 This made me smile. 

My sincere apologies - I hadn't had my second cup of coffee before typing - a cardinal rule for my morning XRP postings!

You are the true gentleman here and make excellent points about the tone of this forum - it's always been primarily based on excitement over the new technological possiblities that Ripple provides, along with a collection of colorful individuals that seem to get along with each other no matter their differences. 

Keep calm and Hodor!

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