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XRP Ledger Technical community?


Troote
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Hi guys,

I had another look this week-end to try and find the community of builders in the XRP ecosystem. What I am seeing:

- The number of contributors and commits (number of changes in the source code) publicly disclosed on Github is low (https://github.com/ripple/rippled) compared to that of Bitcoin (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin) or ETH (https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum).
- The number of contributions on XRP-related technical forums (e.g. this one or https://forum.ripplex.io/) is also low.

My questions.

Where is the community of XRP Ledger builders? Where are the tinkerers and entrepreneurs? What are the communication channels of the XRP Ledger Foundation? Where are the mailing lists, the bi-weekly calls that you find elsewhere with e.g. the Linux or RISC-V community? How does anyone join, talk, help? The XRP Ledger Foundation is completely closed. A landing page and a repo. The contributors on Github (https://github.com/orgs/XRPLF/people) are even hidden.

I asked @nikb and @JoelKatz on Twitter - but they did not reply, and I am not 100% sure I understand why.

From my point of view, the community of builders looks incredibly opaque at best, completely dead at worst. And to be honest - it is starting to scare me and to undermine my confidence in XRP's future. Ripple's stake in XRP is a good thing, but their success is not enough by itself. Can someone highlight to me the entry points?

Thanks

Troote

@Wietse

Edited by Troote
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I hear this a lot and do not understand.   It seems strange that Ripple have not put more resources into building an independent community of dev projects like ETH have.  I hear of all these people working with ETH, but then I hear that they have not yet produced anything that is really impacting in the real world?   XPring was a huge investment and it has brought us Forte, Flare and helped Wiest.  Is it because up until now XRP has been about ODL not SCs?

Then I look at LTC which is an abandoned project and lots of investors continue to pump this dead horse with their investment money.  

Ripple employs about 500 people and is located in all the big financial centres.  SBI also has big XRP projects they are bringing on, in B2V2 ODL liquidity, Moneytap and eSports.  Lots of rumours of fintech working with Ripple on Ripplenet and ODL in places like Argentina, Dubai, London and Singapore.

 

Edited by Julian_Williams
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7 hours ago, Sukrim said:

Do you want to take part in discussions and do you have a project running or are you just interested in some "developer activity" metric for guessing how many USD your stack of XRP might be worth in 2 years from now?

Both. I am a doer. If I want my stack of XRPs to be worth millions, I'll work to make it happen.

To be honest I find it very surprising that my motives for asking the question matters at all. Suspicion does not sound like a desirable core value to me. When I talked to SiFive 2 weeks ago and asked them similar questions, they opened wide-open the doors to the RISC-V ecosystem and I have gained full visibility on their AI software and hardware roadmaps. They gave me everything I needed to go through the ideation process. Just comparing high profile projects like RISC-V and XRP, which share similar potential global impact, the difference in terms of organization and accessibility is absolutely staggering.

On one hand, @nikb posts on Twitter that the XRP community is in dire need of developers. On the other hand, I see no obvious entry point and suspicion. I don't get it. I really, genuinely don't get it. What is the worry?

Edited by Troote
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5 minutes ago, Julian_Williams said:

I hear this a lot and do not understand.   It seems strange that Ripple have not put more resources into building an independent community of dev projects like ETH have.

I believe that if Ripple did invest heavily into building the community, they might reinforce the idea that XRP is a security. Maybe they are just not legally allowed to lead. That's the only explanation I have, if that's not it I don't understand either what is going on.

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1 hour ago, Troote said:

On one hand, @nikb posts on Twitter that the XRP community is in dire need of developers.

I won't comment on what Ripple has done or what they can or should do, except to say that the less they do, they better in my personal opinion. 

Our community does need developers, but more than that, it needs builderspeople who will take stock of the building blocks that are already there and choose to build something that makes new things possible.

It's great that you're asking these questions and that you're looking at this ecosystem with a mind towards building and I look forward to seeing what you decide to build and to participate in interesting conversations about the way forward.

 

 

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3 hours ago, nikb said:

I won't comment on what Ripple has done or what they can or should do, except to say that the less they do, they better in my personal opinion. 

Our community does need developers, but more than that, it needs builderspeople who will take stock of the building blocks that are already there and choose to build something that makes new things possible.

It's great that you're asking these questions and that you're looking at this ecosystem with a mind towards building and I look forward to seeing what you decide to build and to participate in interesting conversations about the way forward.

Right. So basically "what you see is what you get". I hear you. Ripple has a business to run and ecosystem contributions need to be limited to enablement. Plus, Ripple taking the lead would thwart any leadership from emerging elsewhere. Got it.

I'll pick up the trail from here. Looks like the actual ecosystem building is Netherlands-centric. Found a few new people to talk to, I'll follow-up there. Thanks.

Edited by Troote
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6 hours ago, Troote said:

When I talked to SiFive 2 weeks ago and asked them similar questions, they opened wide-open the doors to the RISC-V ecosystem and I have gained full visibility on their AI software and hardware roadmaps. They gave me everything I needed to go through the ideation process.

Cool. What have you done/built with this access? What's missing for you to start working on your XRPL based project? A mentor? Live-chat? Examples from other people? Documentation?

I'm suspicious, because for me personally over the years there has been a LOT of noise and very little actual output from people that wanted more direct access to experts. It's often easier to start building something and then asking for help than asking for a lot of resources and then... reinforce your confidence in XRP's future and make you less scared? That seems the thing that you are after, looking at your initial post. How would the developer community get in touch with you? Where's your GitHub profile, what are your skills, what are your ideas?

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1 hour ago, Sukrim said:

Cool. What have you done/built with this access? What's missing for you to start working on your XRPL based project? A mentor? Live-chat? Examples from other people? Documentation?

I'm suspicious, because for me personally over the years there has been a LOT of noise and very little actual output from people that wanted more direct access to experts. It's often easier to start building something and then asking for help than asking for a lot of resources and then... reinforce your confidence in XRP's future and make you less scared? That seems the thing that you are after, looking at your initial post. How would the developer community get in touch with you? Where's your GitHub profile, what are your skills, what are your ideas?

The thing you have got fundamentally wrong is that I am not asking for help. Just read my initial post again. I do not need a mentor or documentation. I think the XRP community needs help. I am trying to figure out how I (or anyone else, for that matters) can help. Big difference.

Example: I think the XRP Ledger Foundation website is a great starting point but is just not good enough. Objectively, look at xrpfl.org and compare it to ethereum.org. This, in itself, is probably more than enough for people who "DYOR" to conclude that XRP is a centralized, scammy sh*tcoin. How am I supposed to subscribe to the XRPLF marketing mailing list, understand what is being done and offer my time to help improve the website?

I get that there are many time wasters, but a gatekeeping mentality is counter-productive and will deter people who are keen to help.

Anyway. Whatever. I will stop here, this thread is unlikely to be productive. I got my answer: there are no clear entry points. I will find my way elsewhere.

Edited by Troote
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11 hours ago, Troote said:

The thing you have got fundamentally wrong is that I am not asking for help.

Alright, then you're just in the wrong forum section, I assumed you actually wanted some help. Good luck on your journey. If anyone reading this is actually interested in XRPL and building on it, just get in touch.

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1 hour ago, Sukrim said:

Alright, then you're just in the wrong forum section, I assumed you actually wanted some help. Good luck on your journey. If anyone reading this is actually interested in XRPL and building on it, just get in touch.

Oh ok. Which one is the right one?

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On 12/21/2020 at 8:00 PM, Troote said:

I got my answer: there are no clear entry points.

As far as XRPL devs - the company started using Slack a long time ago, which is more like semi-private.  @nikb and @JoelKatzof course predate that, to a time where forums were probably more often used - @nikbwould have to confirm but it’s my perception that the majority of Ripple-hired devs are active only there? And perhaps that is hindering building an open source community?

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This is just my honest opinion, so please do not attack me on this point for speaking from my heart, but my opinion is that around the time of about 2015-2016 would be the time that a lot of the known Ripple services went under a consolidation process where just a few actors were left to service the community an a lot of developers (an their services) went under because of mostly a lack of liquidity and interest in their assets/service structure.  I would like to take the time to have those that recall the service DividendRippler which ran an automated service.  I don't remember the developer's name behind this service but they were indeed quick to the "small business" Ripple Gateway style of service an in their case it was a highly successful opportunity for a time until this consolidation in the Ripple services sector at that time. 

We lost the Bitcoin bridge and I remember making a post on the Official Ripple Forums for how to use our Ripple-REST API to still use the bridge service from SnapSwap but people were angry because they 'had to do more work' than they thought was necessary since there was no way to perform such transaction in the Ripple Trade client at that time.  Again, another great service lost to the likes of other more popular an liquid services (won't name names but you can guess who I'm talking about).

I would say don't worry.  Developers will come and developers will go.  I've been active in the community for 6 years come this Christmas.  I spend most of my time working with the XRP Ledger but I'm not going to lie, I've been spending time on reading into other languages like Solidity and learning more about the Ethereum blockchain and smart contracts, since the XRP Ledger is not really designed to support building games, which is a post that I wish I had mirrored here but just posted on the official ripple forums, which again, are now inaccessible.

Edited by TaylorWarden
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As far as I see it:

-Building something on/for rippled (the core software): the codebase is very complex and Ripple's knowledge and technical skills and efficiency is way higher than anyone else out here. Moreover until recently most of the validators were controlled by Ripple, so any modification to ripple would still pass through them. Now it is possible with the recent decentralization, and maybe we'll see some amendments from the community in the future.

-Building something on XRPL DEX (distributed exchange): one of the biggest problem is that the IOUs have counterparty risks. I've seen in 6 years a lot of gateways to disappear and I personally lost some non-negligible money because of this. Also Ripple never pushed a lot this feature. There are some indivuduals (or small groups) that built (private and a very few public) trading bot on it. I myself built some market making, arbitrage and frontrunning bots, but it's a hobby more than a large project.

-Building something around XRP: the (powerful) API are there. I think ideas and entrepreneurs are missing.  Moreover I'm still personally skeptical about the technical capabilities of the network. Some ideal data were given, but a real test case was never published. Moreover technical papers destroyed some claims of the original white paper and we never gon an official answer.

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