The impossibility of equality in an XRP settled world

[Frisia 120]

On 9/29/2019 at 3:11 PM, ringer2 said:

Currencies need to be stable and predictable. What investors are hoping for from XRP is anything but that. 

XRP should not be volatile for obvious reasons but it doesn't need to be stable. These are different things.

[Wandering_Dog 557]

9 hours ago, Tinyaccount said:

This is the start of your screed and it’s wrong on every level.  Every assumption it makes is wrong.  To believe it would require a faith that I do not have....  so no... I will not be joining your religion.   

Do you mean to say, that XRP, or any crypto, is not secure and can be accessed by governments and private parties without your consent? So my premise that 'crypto is secure' is false? Is that really your belief here?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Wandering_Dog said:

Do you mean to say, that XRP, or any crypto, is not secure and can be accessed by governments and private parties without your consent? So my premise that 'crypto is secure' is false? Is that really your belief here?

No and you know that.  Straw man attempt.  My point is that crypto and dollar bills can Both be hidden and both can be forced out of someone.  Nothing new in that.  To suppose it’s making governments unable to tax is a pipe dream of anarchists.

If you think it’s magical and makes taxation impossible then I wish you good luck with the audit.

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Subsequently, the enforcement of taxation, which forms the basis of monetary economies, and the enforcement of judgments obtained from courts of law, which forms the basis of contracts, undermines the possibility of using XRP or any currently existing crypto instruments as a means of settling exchange.

Nonsense.

[Wandering_Dog 557]

1 hour ago, Tinyaccount said:

No and you know that.  Straw man attempt.  My point is that crypto and dollar bills can Both be hidden and both can be forced out of someone.  Nothing new in that.  To suppose it’s making governments unable to tax is a pipe dream of anarchists.

Ok, this is an incorrect understanding of a fiat ledger, which treats entries like commodities, when they are not. You cannot "hide" USD, as it exists on a ledger that is controlled by the gov. When we say it's "hidden" or "inaccessible" to the gov, that is an expression of our political system, which controls that ledger, our laws, and the legal system. All USD are always accessible by the US Gov, that we choose to prevent ourselves from some actions or contrain others is a choice--and this choice does not exist on ledgers outside of the gov's control, such as the XRPL. So no, the premise that dollars bills can be hidden is false. Furthermore, it is irrelevant--because the gov can create more USD, or destroy any USD, at any time, the supply of reserves is fully flexible as are the supply of the lower monies such as commercial bank deposits and private debt instruments. USD can always be taken as the gov can adjust its ledger any way it chooses--it simply reduces numbers in one account and adds numbers to another--nothing needs to be "forced", as it was never under anyone else's control.  

So you need to be more specific about how the statement "crypto is secure" but also "crypto can be taken without consent", because the latter sounds like a negation to me.

Again, you cannot retrieve my keys by putting me under duress. Futhermore, I can destroy my keys, or the person or device who knows the keys can be destroyed. In all cases, regardless of consequences, the XRP can be made inaccessible, period. And no, you cannot tax something that is inaccessible in such a way, when that thing is the settlement asset. 

    

1 hour ago, Tinyaccount said:

If you think it’s magical and makes taxation impossible then I wish you good luck with the audit.

Nonsense.

Show me how you tax a balance sheet with XRP on it that you can't access--that is magic, and I'd be interested in seeing it, as you say its a non-issue. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Wandering_Dog said:

Again, you cannot retrieve my keys by putting me under duress.

This is as silly as the rest of your fantasy.  I’m bowing out...  it’s not something I wish to continue.

[Wandering_Dog 557]

1 hour ago, Tinyaccount said:

This is as silly as the rest of your fantasy.  I’m bowing out...  it’s not something I wish to continue.

[Ripple-Stiltskin 16,416]

1 hour ago, Wandering_Dog said:

So no, the premise that dollars bills can be hidden is false.

Watch “ Narcos” ( about Pablo Escobar) on Netflix.

1 hour ago, Wandering_Dog said:

Again, you cannot retrieve my keys by putting me under duress.

Maybe not. But the question is what you can buy with your hidden XRP in jail. 

I’m afraid your account is hacked, as this whole thread is nonsense,  wrapped in vague and semi-academic gibberish language.  

 

 

[Wandering_Dog 557]

10 hours ago, Ripple-Stiltskin said:

Watch “ Narcos” ( about Pablo Escobar) on Netflix.

Maybe not. But the question is what you can buy with your hidden XRP in jail. 

I’m afraid your account is hacked, as this whole thread is nonsense,  wrapped in vague and semi-academic gibberish language.  

 

 

No, preventing someone from buying something is not the same as increasing spending by someone else. If spending by workers is too low, in a system where xrp is used as a settlement layer, that spending can't be increased by gov intervention, the stagnation cannot be corrected.

[Vesm 1,521]

On 9/29/2019 at 3:11 PM, ringer2 said:

There absolutely are reasons. An appreciating asset used as an exchange currency would dramatically reduce consumer spending. An inflationary currency is a much better consumer incentive than a deflationary one because people will be incentivized to put off purchases While we wait for the currency  to appreciate. It’s Bob and the pizza all over again. 

 Currencies need to be stable and predictable. What investors are hoping for from XRP is anything but that. 

Is USD an exchange currency or an appreciating asset? 

[jn_r 769]

I saw this talk at devcon5 (Ethereum conference) about debt-forgiveness and kinda reminded me of the @Wandering_Dog discussions. Below is a short summary

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The dreams of cryptocurrencies tend to focus on money and seem to avoid the topic, repercussions, and significance of debt. In fiat currencies, 95% of all money is matched with debt — in other words, debt creates 95% of all money. This talk aims to bring the impact of debt into the Ethereum conversation, specifically focusing on debt with interest. Let's consider this side of crypto coins and Ethereum in particular since it provides the ability to encode obligations as contracts and therefore can encode debt obligations.

And here the presentation if you have 20 minutes to spare:

https://slideslive.com/38920105/money-and-debt-and-digital-contracts

 

[KarmaCoverage 4,180]

On 9/29/2019 at 5:06 AM, Wandering_Dog said:

XRP, as with any crypto, cannot be taken without the consent of its holder. Even under the extraordinary application of surveillance or torture, XRP can be withheld from both state and private entities. Subsequently, the enforcement of taxation, which forms the basis of monetary economies, and the enforcement of judgments obtained from courts of law, which forms the basis of contracts, undermines the possibility of using XRP or any currently existing crypto instruments as a means of settling exchange.

More importantly, however, given this indelible nature of crypto assets, is the potential for XRP to make wealth and income inequality a permanent feature of society at the time of adoption. Regardless of which group holds political power of a national sovereign, once XRP is accepted by the state as a means of payment, the current distribution of financial assets can be effectively converted into indelible crypto form, free of any democratically led sovereign intervention. Once this occurs, it means that the redistribution of wealth from current wealth holders would become impossible--as no amount of taxation can be enforced and no court judgement can be enforced. Those XRP assets, and any other assortment of crypto assets, could only be attacked by the majority by orphaning those systems from other payment networks.

In other words, if XRP was accepted as means of payment, and it became a standard, there would become no way to correct a liberal economic system once as it tends towards its final monopolistic state. The result would be a fragmentation of the crypto payment system to orphan those assets, in order to correct the imbalances in income and wealth and resolve stagnation. 

In even simpler terms, even if a crypto solution is impelmented, it cannot by definition of a liberal economic system persist for a long time horizon. And, the inequality that exists at the time of the implementation becomes baseline for the system itself--as the imbalance cannot ever be corrected for through taxation or court order.

Rather than seeing XRP as a means of freeing yourself from the grips of the system you live in today--it is the exact opposite. It gives the 1% a means to conceal their wealth from society, to make their power permanent and prevent any correction to those systemic imbalances--you would in effect never be capable of being better off than you are today.    

While I understand your points, and that they are valid, I think that you may be over emphasizing your points. Many of these type of things exist on a spectrum, and I think the benefit of having an crypto asset with these characteristics (speed, finality, non-domestic) out weighs the legitimate concerns and points that you make.