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20 minutes ago, jn_r said:

Yes, maybe poor choice of how to make the point, but meaning, in the whole process, it is only this ordening of transactions that is done by the validators. They can't decide on anything else then the ordening. They can't fake transactions, they can't create extra XRP, they can't sensor transactions - unless they collude. So basically anybody can do it, as long as they do it.  (And I am ignoring the amendment process..)

they can change the fee, the reserve, etc.

and https://github.com/ripple/rippled/pull/3380

 

Edited by yxxyun
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1 hour ago, Caracappa said:

Well, you managed to keep it a polite discussion for exactly one day. Now we're back to the Twitter level tone of voice. He in nowhere attacked you,

I didn't say he attacked me. I said he interrupted me to try and argue despite only one of us knowing the tech. He showed up in this thread after I starting posting and I caught him make 3 mistakes, one which helped me connect him to something else. 

All it takes is an anonymous account making provably wrong statements for you to decide that the woman posting under her real name, using her real profile, who spent 7 years of her life studying, learning, and championing the XRPL, is here telling you what nobody else has been willing to say, despite being in a position where it's difficult to speak freely and I only have things to lose,  but the opportunity to analyze, judge, and criticize me was just too much to pass up. 

Good luck to you. 

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11 minutes ago, jn_r said:

Yes, maybe poor choice of how to make the point, but meaning, in the whole process, it is only this ordening of transactions that is done by the validators. They can't decide on anything else then the ordening. They can't fake transactions, they can't create extra XRP, they can't sensor transactions - unless they collude. So basically anybody can do it, as long as they do it.  (And I am ignoring the amendment process..)

They vote on amendments. Maybe somebody will introduce an amendment to substantially increase the supply of XRP and have it sent directly to the validators that you are at the mercy of? Or maybe something even more creative?

 

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13 minutes ago, TiffanyHayden said:

I didn't say he attacked me. I said he interrupted me to try and argue despite only one of us knowing the tech. He showed up in this thread after I starting posting and I caught him make 3 mistakes, one which helped me connect him to something else. 

All it takes is an anonymous account making provably wrong statements for you to decide that the woman posting under her real name, using her real profile, who spent 7 years of her life studying, learning, and championing the XRPL, is here telling you what nobody else has been willing to say, despite being in a position where it's difficult to speak freely and I only have things to lose,  but the opportunity to analyze, judge, and criticize me was just too much to pass up. 

Good luck to you. 

Well you to, and I mean that as I think you are pointing at valid points. I just disagree with the tone of voice, but both the choice as responsibility is fully yours

Btw, he said "These aspects existed since I discovered XRPL years ago" and that got you aggitaded. But I don't see where he is wrong as that is a rather arbitrary timeline. He did not say "since the beginning of time".

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I have learnt a lot from this thread - it is so important and productive that people with opposing viewpoints thrash out their side of arguments to the bitter end. 

The one thing you will always find in these discussions is that people will only change their opinions after they have had time to ruminate and digest the opposing viewpoints, as such one side will never win an argument on the day.  The centre of gravity moves first, then the consensus comes later.

@TiffanyHayden I really appreciate hearing your side of the story because you are so well known and your differences with Ripple management has generated an undercurrent of bitterness in some of the messaging inside the XRP community.  The very fact that you write and post under your real name made me acutely aware that you work and speak with honesty and therefore this treatment was from misunderstanding and unfair criticism. I think @Jerrybo is not one of those people who is trying to denigrate you or do you down. 

  

Edited by Julian_Williams
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2 minutes ago, Caracappa said:

Well you to, and I mean that as I think you are pointing at valid points. I just disagree with the tone of voice, but both the choice as responsibility is fully yours

Btw, he said "These aspects existed since I discovered XRPL years ago" and that got you aggitaded. But I don't see where he is wrong as that is a rather arbitrary timeline. He did not say "since the beginning of time".

You're trying so hard to analyze me, looking for underlying meaning, and trying to find things to critique instead of reading my actual words. Adding validators to the dUNL *is* new. Ripple ran the fabulous five up until recently. Then we began to move toward "decentralization" and Ripple started removing their validators and replacing them with other validators. Nobody questioned the quality of the validators replacing Ripple's, or the competency of the people operating them, or even how they were being selected. It wasn't until 5 validators went down and we were one validator away from halting that it became clear that the validators added to the dUNL were subpar and run by operators who don't really care. It was the most stressful experience, for 2 people in particular, who I think put their health in jeopardy, going days without sleep, doing everything in the world to keep the network up. While everyone else in the community gets to live carefree, unaware and unwilling to help, even after hearing about the issues because I'm probably lying and oh my God did you see the way I shut that anonymous account down the second he spread misinformation? What a ***** with deep rooted issues and other things about men and women and Twitter. 

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@TiffanyHayden Thank you for drawing attention to the issues you mention. For me, as an outsider, it is impossible to fully appreciate the decisions Ripple management makes. Often there is of course more to it than meets the eye. But I try to understand, and would love to hear your opinion on the following two thoughts:

(1) It has been suggested that that the whole " decentralization" was/is incentivized by regulatory issues. The fact that they left it to ´amateurs´ for now could also suggest that it is done to prove a point, and that Ripple and/or the earlier suggested ´FI´s with an incentive´ (banks? central banks even?) will step in (1) once the rules are clear AND (2) the network is actually being used by them (I mean real use, not the pilots and baby steps being made now, in the next couple of years). 

(2) Your point re real transaction number vs lab experiment is well taken. But this holds for most (all?) blockchains as far as I can tell. Could this actually be why Ripple is laser focused on its own use-case to use XRPL and not supporting other initiatives/devs? I mean, you don´t want your ledger to be clogged by crypto kitties (or something more serious for that matter). Same for halting Codius development. Why not keep those precious transactions on your ledger for settlement and use capacity elsewhere for everything else? Seems the strategy nowadays (e.g. https://mobile.twitter.com/XpringDev/status/1287812967543652353 ). I personally think it´s unfortunate, but if needed due to transaction limitations or to excel in one use case (as a business), it could be a wise and useful strategy.

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4 minutes ago, zero-2-9 said:

(1) It has been suggested that that the whole " decentralization" was/is incentivized by regulatory issues.

It wasn't. I built a startup on the XRPL and demoed the app in January of 2015. *Nobody* sat around wondering what Ripple was doing back then. It's only the past 2 years that people started showing up thinking that they were going to make money from XRP because of something that Ripple is doing. 

9 minutes ago, zero-2-9 said:

The fact that they left it to ´amateurs´

It wasn't left to amateurs. Somebody in a leadership role hand-selected questionable validators and it's everybody's responsibility to find out why they were chosen.

11 minutes ago, zero-2-9 said:

suggested ´FI´s with an incentive´ (banks? central banks even?) will step in

I don't think there is a chance in hell that a bank will run a validator. Liability is an issue and so is the fact that banks don't have employees who do this type of thing nor do they want to be burdened with it. It's the same thing with many exchanges. Many cite "liability" as an issue and they don't care how low transaction fees are. They pass those costs onto their customers. They have no desire to start running nodes and they truly don't care if the XRPL lives or dies. 

17 minutes ago, zero-2-9 said:

Could this actually be why Ripple is laser focused on its own use-case to use XRPL

I haven't seen any XRPL laser focus. Are you able to find any screenshots of applications/software utilizing XRP that has been provided by Ripple?

21 minutes ago, zero-2-9 said:

I mean, you don´t want your ledger to be clogged by crypto kitties (or something more serious for that matter). Same for halting Codius development. Why not keep those precious transactions on your ledger for settlement and use capacity elsewhere for everything else? S

It's not Ripple's ledger nor is it their responsibility. Do you have plans to provide upgraded infrastructure at some point? If not, there is no reason to assume anybody else plans to either. 

 

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37 minutes ago, TiffanyHayden said:

This forum is so much quieter than I remember. 

Yes, it has partly been wrecked by the bitterness of people who invested in XRP expecting fast profits with no pain or personal responsibility, some have become trolls that feed on the disappointment and distress of others.  Many people hide from dealing with them by staying behind the by invitation only walls of the zerpening club.  User Ignore is a better option.

This thread has been a delight to read.

I am quite sure the forum will regain momentum and gravitas after XRP has properly bottomed and prices rise again

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1 minute ago, Julian_Williams said:

Yes, it has partly been wrecked by the bitterness of people who invested in XRP expecting fast profits with no pain or personal responsibility, some have become trolls that feed on the disappointment and distress of others.  Many people hide from dealing with them by staying behind the by invitation only walls of the zerpening club.  User Ignore is a better option.

This thread has been a delight to read.

I am quite sure the forum will regain momentum and gravitas after XRP has properly bottomed and prices rise again

Nobody is interested in building or tinkering? 

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7 minutes ago, TiffanyHayden said:

It wasn't. I built a startup on the XRPL and demoed the app in January of 2015. *Nobody* sat around wondering what Ripple was doing back then. It's only the past 2 years that people started showing up thinking that they were going to make money from XRP because of something that Ripple is doing. 

It wasn't left to amateurs. Somebody in a leadership role hand-selected questionable validators and it's everybody's responsibility to find out why they were chosen.

I don't think there is a chance in hell that a bank will run a validator. Liability is an issue and so is the fact that banks don't have employees who do this type of thing nor do they want to be burdened with it. It's the same thing with many exchanges. Many cite "liability" as an issue and they don't care how low transaction fees are. They pass those costs onto their customers. They have no desire to start running nodes and they truly don't care if the XRPL lives or dies. 

I haven't seen any XRPL laser focus. Are you able to find any screenshots of applications/software utilizing XRP that has been provided by Ripple?

It's not Ripple's ledger nor is it their responsibility. Do you have plans to provide upgraded infrastructure at some point? If not, there is no reason to assume anybody else plans to either. 

 

from what you have written these nodes are too expensive for private individuals to take on.  They need to be subsidised with either fees or payments from some centrally managed community fund.  This is definitely a subject that has to be addressed by the community. 

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15 minutes ago, TiffanyHayden said:

Nobody is interested in building or tinkering? 

I like your attitude, but I personally  would never do what you have done, especially out laying that much money.  If I were to devote that much time to a charitable cause it would be more directly humanitarian by nature.     It is just wrong that you were spending that much personal money running a validator.  

I think the system your described is in desperate need of reform, and your best contribution is to keep making rational arguments about the need for this situation to be addressed sensibly.  I would guess you have many contacts and friends who are aware of what you found out through experience and are putting pressure on to understand Ripple that they have a responsibility to create a community around the XRPL that supports validators.

If they don't bite your hands off don't judge them as not listening, they will be hearing you.

 

Edited by Julian_Williams
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3 minutes ago, Julian_Williams said:

from what you have written these nodes are too expensive for private individuals to take on.  They need to be subsidised with either fees or payments from some centrally managed community fund.  This is definitely a subject that has to be addressed by the community. 

I think it's time to consider that what we expected to happen -non-Ripple affiliated companies building on the ledger and therefore becoming XRPL stakeholders, isn't going to happen. It's been 7 years. And I realized recently after talking to an exchange owner that exchanges are never going to be XRPL stakeholders. And I didn't realize until then, but in my mind, they were the a last resort who I thought was a sure thing. I was wrong. And now I can't think of any realistic reasons for anybody to build on the XRPL, unless they are affiliated with Ripple, which makes them Ripple stakeholders, not XRPL stakeholders. If Ripple & friends are the only ones who are able to make money from the XRPL, does it make sense for anybody else to be supplying infrastructure and running validators on the network? It seems like it's time to reconsider what we're doing and why.

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