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Nikkei - Fintech leaders call for regulations to foster a cashless society

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Charles Hoskinson, left, CEO of IOHK Hong Kong; Yosuke Tsuji, representative director and CEO of Money Forward; Yoshiki Yasui, founder and CEO of Origami; and Takashi Okita, CEO of SBI Ripple Asia, talk about how smartphones, QR codes and blockchains spell doom for cash.

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-trends/Fintech-leaders-call-for-regulations-to-foster-a-cashless-society

Edited by kenrino

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They may be correct; cash may be doomed. But I pray that there is a ubiquitous, anonymous stand-in ready to replace it. Governments have wanted to ban cash for a long time, and it has nothing to do with what is good for individuals and everything to do with what is good for politicians. Hiding money and transactions from bureaucrats has a long and noble tradition throughout human history. I hope it continues in one form or another. 

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7 minutes ago, Montoya said:

They may be correct; cash may be doomed. But I pray that there is a ubiquitous, anonymous stand-in ready to replace it. Governments have wanted to ban cash for a long time, and it has nothing to do with what is good for individuals and everything to do with what is good for politicians. Hiding money and transactions from bureaucrats has a long and noble tradition throughout human history. I hope it continues in one form or another. 

This is the dark side of crypto. More control. All transactions traceable. No way to cheat on taxes. Privacy coins banned. Brave New World.

There will always be work-arounds, but it won't be easy.

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7 hours ago, zerpdigger said:

i'm against anonymous money but all for private money, i think it's the best tradeoff to help fight serious crime while also preserving consumer/p2p data rights

Not sure I understand the difference between private and anonymous money. Call it what you will, but history has shown that governments have a convenient knack for finding "serious crimes"  when someone opposes them. If you give them the tools to oppress, they will eventually use it. 

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12 minutes ago, Montoya said:

Not sure I understand the difference between private and anonymous money.

I’m assuming that private money means it’s not on public display but can be tracked and traced by authority.  

Anonymous money can’t be tracked or traced.  Cash is like that to a degree although it does have a serial number so is not completely anonymous.  

Confusingly in this space...   the public ledgers have the facility after “netting” to provide private money.  But the privacy coins have the anonymous money (if implemented correctly).

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16 hours ago, Montoya said:

Hiding money and transactions from bureaucrats has a long and noble tradition throughout human history. I hope it continues in one form or another. 

Considering the bureaucrats are the undisputed heavyweight champions of hiding money and transactions from the public maybe it’s time for change?

Honestly, as long as I’m filthy rich I have nothing to hide.

Maybe that betrays my origins as someone who has never had huge amounts of money to hide though.

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6 hours ago, Zerpaholic said:

Considering the bureaucrats are the undisputed heavyweight champions of hiding money and transactions from the public maybe it’s time for change?

Honestly, as long as I’m filthy rich I have nothing to hide.

Maybe that betrays my origins as someone who has never had huge amounts of money to hide though.

To be sure, anonymous money is not without its own social costs, as you point out. All I'm saying is that trusting a government to never screw you over is one gamble I don't wish to take. Anonymous cash is simply one way in which the people can keep their governments in check and protect themselves in the case that an unscrupulous regime gets elected or seizes power. This is especially important for groups that represent a minority in their respective countries, whether ethnic, religious, cultural, or even ideological. Trusting the government not to abuse the ability to track and locate every dollar is akin to those who say you should give permission to the police to search your car if you have nothing to hide. In fact, this brings up a good example. In the U.S. asset forfeiture has been abused massively for the last thirty years of so, destroying many peoples lives. It is legalized theft by the government. Even if you are found not guilty the government can keep all cash, vehicles, etc. if they suspect you were up to no good. It shouldn't be surprising that it is mostly black and brown people who are victimized in this way. This has led to small business owners, foreigners remitting cash back home, and many other victims, convicted of no crime, having had their life savings taken away with no legal recourse. Now imagine if all cash were trackable, how much worse would this practice be? How many more weak people would be victimized by the strong? Hell, Trump himself has suggested the outright theft of remittances of Mexican-Americans to relatives back in Mexico. Plain and simple, in my opinion, anonymous money helps offer some protection for the weak and disenfranchised. Just food for thought. 

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12 hours ago, Montoya said:

Not sure I understand the difference between private and anonymous money. Call it what you will, but history has shown that governments have a convenient knack for finding "serious crimes"  when someone opposes them. If you give them the tools to oppress, they will eventually use it. 

yeah what @Tinyaccount said pretty much 

bitcoin is private, for example, but not truly anonymous... (pseudonymous perhaps at best, if you've mined your own to begin with and never touched KYC etc) but Big Data Analysis has completely 100% exposed bitcoin traceability, same for all current altcoins

what we really need is privacy for the consumer/retail/p2p (no data mining, no trapped silos, etc) and for the banks to protect their clients as well, and for national security reasons in general... but a VALID, legally sanctioned court order should be able to force tracking of funds, just like you can track cash notes with IDs from store to store if necessary 

what we absolutely do NOT need is anonymous crypto-money, bc that's what gangs, terrorists, pedophiles, state-backed election tamperers, tax evaders, etc etc all want -- a terrifying future IMO if we have not only a dark web, but now a dark money web 

what i think we'll end up with is private-sector minting of fiat crypto-money, that gets tethered to ID and to a social purpose, so you literally bake in conditions into the money itself, and that money is coin based, NOT account based like xrp/btc/eth, etc

that way every token/transaction history is potentially traceable only if you order mints/issuers to divulge info, but privacy is maintained for the consumer and average joe and data mining is rendered impossible bc the ID/metadata is never ever revealed upon usage, but only once if the government have reasonable/probable cause, a warrant, etc

/rant :) 

Edited by zerpdigger

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On 6/13/2019 at 11:49 AM, zerpdigger said:

but only once if the government have reasonable/probable cause, a warrant, etc

I doubt that a government's promise to police itself will be much consolation to someone from Russia, China, Venezuela, or any number of countries, who runs afoul of the regime. I stand by my claim that political minorities in particular, have much more to lose than they have to gain by anonymous money being banned. But I realize this is likely a topic on which we will not come to much agreement. 

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