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Chat: [Study Group] Syllabus


BobWay
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Hi Bob, that is Extensive with, a big E! :o Lots in there that is on my learning Radar, and lots that has not even come close to detection as yet!

A quick question on Study Group media sharing, is there any fast rules on what or what not to share,and when, should we wait for a sign :-)

Example this Syllabus, is this a closed group?

I have created a new Study Group Forum on my site and would like to post each Syllabus Chapter and open each topic up for comments as we begin it, the site is a member site and can be restricted to certain Study Group member chat along with a Guest area to drip feed the knowledge as we move on, open to suggestions as to ow this could work.

If any group members would like to Register a Login please visit XRP4U.com, if they want to know how to create this setup for them self/region please do not hesitate to ask me.

Anyone can email me direct:    admin@xrp4u.com

Hope this is ok?

Thanks Bob

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Wow the syllabus is very comprehensive. 

Thanks @BobWay

After seeing the syllabus, I am planning to introduce this forum/thread to my friend who is willing to learn and explore a bit in fintech space (he is a software engineer, so I guess he will be a good addition to the ecosystem). Hope this is ok...

Edited by whitefanng
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20 hours ago, XrPMaximus said:

A quick question on Study Group media sharing, is there any fast rules on what or what not to share,and when, should we wait for a sign :-)

All of this is open for everyone to see. Feel free to take anything and make use of it. However, consider everything "best guess" until we get started actually discussing things. If you see key concepts you really want to discuss, make sure you highlight so you can pin me down when the time comes. I don't want to gloss over anything important to you.

5 hours ago, whitefanng said:

After seeing the syllabus, I am planning to introduce this forum/thread to my friend who is willing to learn and explore a bit in fintech space (he is a software engineer, so I guess he will be a good addition to the ecosystem). Hope this is ok...

So in general, everyone is invited to follow along...

But I'd like to restrict those who want to "sit at the table" with me, to those who have already introduced themselves in the Study Group introduction thread. Just trying to keep that group manageable.

 

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So my biggest task at the moment is choosing a client to use during our face-to-face sessions.

So far, it is looking like I may have to go old school and use a version of Ripple's old downloadable client. It works both on the test net and main net, and showcases the features I'd like to show the best.

@r0bertz is currently building an updated version of that client that uses the latest libraries. So I think that will end up being the best solution. But until then, you can download Windows and Mac versions of the old client that were built by the Rippex gateway in Brazil. It is available from the internet archive. Sadly, the linux version doesn't seem to be archived. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20180117165134/https://rippex.net/carteira-ripple.php

 

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9 minutes ago, BobWay said:

Why do you feel strongly about this?

Because on one hand in RCL/XRPL "account" has an already existing, different meaning and in bookkeeping "account" also has an existing, different meaning. By saying "a trust line is kinda like an account like in bookkeeping/accounting" you'll risk misleading people that already know bookkeeping/accounting (trust lines have some very different properties from bookkeeping accounts) and you'll also risk that if your disciples then use this terminology in their materials that others confuse accounts in the RCL/XRPL sense with accounts meaning trust line.

I'm not an English native speaker, so I'm not sure what might ultimatively be a better term for "trust line" ("creating a connection"? "opening a tab"? "building some credit"? "allowing debt"?), I think however that people (native speakers or not) would get confused and draw very wrong conclusions if they either are researching deeper into accounting or into RCL/XRPL if they visualize them as "accounts".

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6 hours ago, BobWay said:

So my biggest task at the moment is choosing a client to use during our face-to-face sessions.

So far, it is looking like I may have to go old school and use a version of Ripple's old downloadable client. It works both on the test net and main net, and showcases the features I'd like to show the best.

@r0bertz is currently building an updated version of that client that uses the latest libraries. So I think that will end up being the best solution. But until then, you can download Windows and Mac versions of the old client that were built by the Rippex gateway in Brazil. It is available from the internet archive. Sadly, the linux version doesn't seem to be archived. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20180117165134/https://rippex.net/carteira-ripple.php

 

Installed and looks good! snipped all screens during installation, I will create an installation PDF and share on my site tomorrow if anyone is interested. Not activated as yet, will wait for the updated version and your lead before progressing. Cheers Bob.

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8 hours ago, Sukrim said:

Because on one hand in RCL/XRPL "account" has an already existing, different meaning and in bookkeeping "account" also has an existing, different meaning. By saying "a trust line is kinda like an account like in bookkeeping/accounting" you'll risk misleading people that already know bookkeeping/accounting (trust lines have some very different properties from bookkeeping accounts) and you'll also risk that if your disciples then use this terminology in their materials that others confuse accounts in the RCL/XRPL sense with accounts meaning trust line.

I'm not an English native speaker, so I'm not sure what might ultimatively be a better term for "trust line" ("creating a connection"? "opening a tab"? "building some credit"? "allowing debt"?), I think however that people (native speakers or not) would get confused and draw very wrong conclusions if they either are researching deeper into accounting or into RCL/XRPL if they visualize them as "accounts".

Others may disagree but to me these are equivalent terms. 

If I have a bank account worth $5,000 with Bank of America, that’s equivalent to having a $5,000 trustline with Bank of America. They owe me 5K and I have trusted them to pay me if I ever call in that credit. In common parlance this is an “account” with that bank.

The reason it’s useful to say “account” in this context is that we’re talking about Rippling across the XRPL trust lines, whose relationships will be maintained in large part by custodians like BoA or Chase. So for example, if BoA and I have a trust line open (my BoA account), suddenly that trust can participate in value transfers for total strangers across the ledger.

Ultimately, accounts/trustlines are basically stablecoins (even the centralized ones that exist today!), which is why I’m bullish on stablecoins as a concept — they’re essentially decentralized bank accounts. But longterm I think paper-backed-digital currencies will be replaced by native-digital currencies (and digital-backed-paper). In my mind that’s inevitable. 

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3 hours ago, ADingoAteMyXRP said:

If I have a bank account worth $5,000 with Bank of America, that’s equivalent to having a $5,000 trustline with Bank of America.

No.

You have a trust line with maybe some limit in mind, but you don't make it explicit in your relationship with BoA. In RCL/XRPL you would need to do that first, the 5000 USD balance is only the current balance of that trust line, not the trust line itself.

You can also right now hold USD issued by Bitstamp on XRPL/RCL. If you tell someone you have 100 USD in your Bitstamp account, they are going to assume different things than you owning 100 USD issued/backed by Bitstamp, for example that you have a business relationship with Bitstamp or that the numbers in an account do NOT shift without you explicitly making a transaction.

3 hours ago, ADingoAteMyXRP said:

So for example, if BoA and I have a trust line open (my BoA account), suddenly that trust can participate in value transfers for total strangers across the ledger.

No, only you would have a trust line open to BoA, not you and BoA would have a trust line each. Also a single trust line is not enough for rippling, you need a second one (e.g. with E-Corp bank) in the same currency to enable rippling which is just a fancy way to have unlimited open orders for currency you own.

3 hours ago, ADingoAteMyXRP said:

Ultimately, accounts/trustlines are basically stablecoins

Ultimately trust lines are basically automateable custodian/escrow agreements, if you use the gateway model (which is NOT the only model how trust lines can be used - you can also use them as actual IOUs!).

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2 hours ago, Sukrim said:

You have a trust line with maybe some limit in mind, but you don't make it explicit in your relationship with BoA.

Personally I like to make mine very explicit. They better have my money!

2 hours ago, Sukrim said:

If you tell someone you have 100 USD in your Bitstamp account, they are going to assume different things than you owning 100 USD issued/backed by Bitstamp

That’s fine. We could provide context in either case.

2 hours ago, Sukrim said:

Ultimately trust lines are basically automateable custodian/escrow agreements

Not to be facetious, but this sounds an awful lot like a bank account.

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2 minutes ago, ADingoAteMyXRP said:

Personally I like to make mine very explicit. They better have my money!

So you tell them how much of your money they are allowed to hold at most? This is what I mean by making a limit explicit...

3 minutes ago, ADingoAteMyXRP said:

That’s fine. We could provide context in either case.

You also could use established terminology correctly. :rolleyes:

1 minute ago, ADingoAteMyXRP said:

Not to be facetious, but this sounds an awful lot like a bank account.

That's what I said - IF they are used in the gateway model (which is modeled after the bank system) they resemble a banking relationship. This is NOT the only way to use them and maybe not even the best or easiest way.

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In 5 years of explaining Ripple and the XRP Ledger to people, not a single person has disagreed with me when I described a "trust line" as "an accounting relationship".

An accounting relationship is an agreement between two entities (Alice & Bob) whereby both agree that one of the following is true:

  • Alice owes Bob money   (equivalent)   Alice is holding money for Bob
  • Bob owes Alice money   (equivalent)  Bob is holding money for Alice
  • The balance between them is ZERO   (equivalent)   Alice and Bob's accounting relationship is settled.

Account relationships are easy to describe in bookkeeping terms

  • Alice is holding money for Bob
    • Bob's nostro account   
      • This is an asset account in Bob's bookkeeping system
      • The nostro account ledger carries a debit balance.
    • Alice's vostro account
      • This is an liability account in Alice's bookkeeping system
      • The vostro account ledger carries a credit balance.
  • Bob is holding money for Alice
    • Alice's nostro account
      • This is an asset account in Alice's bookkeeping system
      • The vostro account ledger carries a debit balance.
    • Bob's vostro account   (equivalent)  
      • This is an liability account in Bob's bookkeeping system
      • The vostro account ledger carries a credit balance.

Nostro means "our money held by them".  Vostro means "their money held by us"


In bookkeeping terms, each account carries a debit balance, a credit balance, or a zero balance. From the perspective of the bookkeeping system's owner, some people think of:

  • debit balances (assets) as positive
  • credit balances (liabilities) as negative

But this is not strictly true. The owner of the bookkeeping system also maintains one or more "owner's equity" accounts. Those represent the owner's "net worth". Equity accounts carry credit balances. They are seen as the bookkeeping system's liability to the owner. This is what makes the bookkeeping system as a whole "balance". The XRPL doesn't keep explicit equity accounts, but it can derive them through API calls.

Account relationships also have "limits' on what their account balance can be. These are made explicit on trust lines but are implicit in most accounting systems.

You savings account can not have a negative balance. The lower limit (from your perspective) is zero. From your perspective, it may also have an implicit upper limit as well. Likely the maximum that is insured against loss if the bank were to fail. 

Checking accounts generally can not have a negative balance either. But banks often offer "overdraft protection" as an additional service. So occasionally you might see a checking account go below zero.

 

"Rippling" is an advanced topic, but it generally has more to do with permissions you set for your accounts, than those permissions set by your counterparties.

Edited by BobWay
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