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BobWay

Chat: New Ideas for using the XRP Ledger - Formerly "Most of you are amazed at what Ripple is doing, but you are looking at it wrong."

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45 minutes ago, BobWay said:

I personally talked to a lot of money transfer companies in the early days. I won't name them specifically, but the Pre-Validation protocol started by analyzing what the system would need to connect two payment providers together to create the union of their two networks.

It was trivial to do all their funds tracking and liquidity pricing on the XRP Ledger. It still is. That includes automatic netting, internal FX, external FX providers, and connection multiple payment services together as bi-direction (sending and receiving) end points in a single coherent network.

What was hard was complying with with Know Your Customer (KYC) and Anti Money Laundering (AML) laws. So that was the first add on we built.

---

It is really interesting to realize that, in payments, money rarely moves across borders. If Alice sends a payment from the US to Europe. Alice's USD ends up in the hands of some other US entity in most cases. The EUR delivered to Bob, came from an entity that was already in Europe at the time Alice started. It's magic!

Hi @BobWay thanks a lot. This is very helpful. Not sure if you noticed :) since you are burried in questions and posts from all sides I am sure you are overwhelmed right now, but In relation to KYC / AML and xCurrent I posted a question for you a while back which I am linking below . Would appreciate some color on this whenever you can get to it. Thanks for everything. Wonderful to have you in our chat. Exciting times !!

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, BobWay said:

I personally talked to a lot of money transfer companies in the early days. I won't name them specifically, but the Pre-Validation protocol started by analyzing what the system would need to connect two payment providers together to create the union of their two networks.

It was trivial to do all their funds tracking and liquidity pricing on the XRP Ledger. It still is. That includes automatic netting, internal FX, external FX providers, and connection multiple payment services together as bi-direction (sending and receiving) end points in a single coherent network.

What was hard was complying with with Know Your Customer (KYC) and Anti Money Laundering (AML) laws. So that was the first add on we built.

---

It is really interesting to realize that, in payments, money rarely moves across borders. If Alice sends a payment from the US to Europe. Alice's USD ends up in the hands of some other US entity in most cases. The EUR delivered to Bob, came from an entity that was already in Europe at the time Alice started. It's magic!

Profound analysis, put so simply it becomes stimulating to the imagination!  I have never been interested in banking or finance, but after investing in buying XRP tokens I have begun to try and visualise the systems.  This bit is traditional bookkeeping?   It was trivial to do all their funds tracking and liquidity pricing on the XRP Ledger. It still is. That includes automatic netting, internal FX, external FX providers, and connection multiple payment services together as bi-direction (sending and receiving) end points in a single coherent network.  The bidirectional communication inside the bookkeeping seems to me to add a revolutionary element and opens the system up to introducing AI?

I can see that the KYC and AML is going to involve a lot of new thinking, analysis and testing of systems to see if they would work in the real world. 

Then you come up with this statement:  It is really interesting to realize that, in payments, money rarely moves across borders. If Alice sends a payment from the US to Europe. Alice's USD ends up in the hands of some other US entity in most cases. The EUR delivered to Bob, came from an entity that was already in Europe at the time Alice started. It's magic!  But XRP does cross borders and accumulates?  In the old system the money is static and does not travel so perhaps you hardly notice the surpluses and deficits accumulating (as IOU notes?).  With mass adoption of XRapid/XRP those accumulations and deficits are perhaps going to begin to appear much more transparent and maybe become harder to ignore?  Perhaps changing the psychology of international money management?

Also the money that accumulates in a big pile in China is very liquid compared to vostro nostro account and could be used instantly to purchase something in another country.  XRP really is the worlds first transnational currency as well as bridging asset.

I would be pleased if my analysis were to be corrected by someone who understands this better than I do.

Edited by Julian_Williams

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@Julian_Williams In an effort not to quote the full thread, including mine, which needs a minimization plugin (always) - IOUs shouldn't be the central issue. Also, what is 'bidirectional communication' in FX? The first thing a 3 second money transfer system should solve is #1 a very efficient KYC/AML, and #2 low cost transactions.

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21 minutes ago, 7Bs said:

@Julian_Williams In an effort not to quote the full thread, including mine, which needs a minimization plugin (always) - IOUs shouldn't be the central issue. Also, what is 'bidirectional communication' in FX? The first thing a 3 second money transfer system should solve is #1 a very efficient KYC/AML, and #2 low cost transactions.

My status is a beginner in the B stream trying to visualise how this all works and what the consequences might be.

As I understand it XRapid eliminates the need for Vostro/Nostro accounts and IOUs, but there will still be asymmetric trading.  Piles of XRP will build up in places like China.  My imagination is that owning a piles of XRP will be quite different from owning  a pile of IOUs and Vostro Nostro currency.  The pile of XRP is incredibly mobile and instead of just sitting there building up as a credit it can be utilised immediately anywhere in the world.  Reserve currencies only survive because the surpluses/printed money build up in immobile piles in foreign lands where they stagnate and get forgotten about.  

What makes XRapid/XRP so elegant is its mobility.  The mobility bridges fiat to fiat and it eliminates waste.  The velocity of transactions makes amount of reserve currency required to keep the system oiled go down dramatically.

Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Julian_Williams said:

My status is a beginner in the B stream trying to visualise how this all works and what the consequences might be.

As I understand it XRapid eliminates the need for Vostro/Nostro accounts and IOUs, but there will still be asymmetric trading.  Piles of XRP will build up in places like China.  My imagination is that owning a piles of XRP will be quite different from owning  a pile of IOUs and Vostro Nostro currency.  The pile of XRP is incredibly mobile and instead of just sitting there building up as a credit it can be utilised immediately anywhere in the world.  Reserve currencies only survive because the surpluses/printed money build up in immobile piles in foreign lands where they stagnate and get forgotten about.  

What makes XRapid/XRP so elegant is its mobility.  The mobility bridges fiat to fiat and it eliminates waste.  The velocity of transactions makes amount of reserve currency required to keep the system oiled go down dramatically.

Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick

I believe you and I have the same questions. My perspective is very primitive on this basis B2B FX. Piles will be lent, always, I would think.  I never traded fiat to make a profit. I moved money - to minimize risk - for my clients. I agree with your post, I have all those questions and more. I think where you and I may get boxed in is in the current system of buying and selling, rich or poor. I think there is a perception browser we aren't clicking. I would hope more experienced people can shed some advanced light on how this can be advanced not just in FX, but beyond. Basically I think much smarter people than us have figured out the NV/VN problem (fiat doesn't move cross border but crypto does) so how does all that free liquidity make more sense in the way a phone made more sense before the phone.

Edited by Guest

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Posted (edited)
On 3/16/2019 at 12:43 PM, goldstar111 said:

Hi @BobWay thanks a lot. This is very helpful. Not sure if you noticed :) since you are burried in questions and posts from all sides I am sure you are overwhelmed right now, but In relation to KYC / AML and xCurrent I posted a question for you a while back which I am linking below . Would appreciate some color on this whenever you can get to it. Thanks for everything. Wonderful to have you in our chat. Exciting times !!

Happy to answer, I copied your original questions below.

On 3/14/2019 at 11:48 AM, goldstar111 said:

@BobWaySo to summarize :

How much of a proprietary advantage does xCurrent have with respect to codifying KYC/AML and other aspects of client side integration across multiple jurisdictions. If IBM or a similar large corp like Visa or Mastercard allocates significant developer/resources can they duplicate xCurrent given sufficient time ( 1- 2 years)?

Update:

Upon further reading it appears World Wire is more similar to xRapid and not xCurrent so maybe not a threat :) but still would be interested to know from @BobWay how easy it is to replicate xCurrent.

I think xCurrent has a huge advantage. I just happened to give some details about KYC/AML/OFAC in the post I just wrote, linked here. But in this bit of Ripple marketing collateral on page 18 you see mention of "Rulebook & Advisory Board". I can assure you that one seemingly boring, insignificant, non-crypto, non-sexy two pages, is worth more than all of the partnerships announcements and rumors you see and speculate on every day.

On 3/17/2019 at 8:54 PM, 7Bs said:

@Julian_Williams In an effort not to quote the full thread, including mine, which needs a minimization plugin (always) - IOUs shouldn't be the central issue. Also, what is 'bidirectional communication' in FX? The first thing a 3 second money transfer system should solve is #1 a very efficient KYC/AML, and #2 low cost transactions.

The same two places I linked just above should give you some clear insights as well. Here and Here.

On 3/18/2019 at 12:01 AM, 7Bs said:

I believe you and I have the same questions. ... I think there is a perception browser we aren't clicking. I would hope more experienced people can shed some advanced light on how this can be advanced not just in FX, but beyond.

Basically I think much smarter people than us have figured out the NV/VN problem (fiat doesn't move cross border but crypto does)

so how does all that free liquidity make more sense in the way a phone made more sense before the phone.

I'd like to answer, but I'm not sure of your exact question. Could you clarify what you are seeking to understand in the first.

And define NV/VN problem in the second.

And clarify the phone metaphor as well, and perhaps what you mean by "free liquidity".

Edited by BobWay

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Posted (edited)
On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 1:45 AM, BobWay said:

Happy to answer, I copied your original questions below.

I think xCurrent has a huge advantage. I just happened to give some details about KYC/AML/OFAC in the post I just wrote, linked here. But in this bit of Ripple marketing collateral on page 18 you see mention of "Rulebook & Advisory Board". I can assure you that one seemingly boring, insignificant, non-crypt, non-sexy two pages, is worth more than all of the partnerships announcements and rumors you see and speculate on every day.

The same two places I linked just above should give you some clear insights as well. Here and Here.

I'd like to answer, but I'm not sure of your exact question. Could you clarify what you are seeking to understand in the first.

And define NV/VN problem in the second.

And clarify the phone metaphor as well, and perhaps what you mean by "free liquidity".

On the first, I wouldn't want to speak for @Julian_Williams but it was bookkeeping? He didn't like tracking on XRPL? 'Variant ways' of recording, can the accountants explain it?

NV/VN would seem to me to be stagnation. Opportunity cost.

From the media, it seems like the cross border problem is being solved multiple ways (bitcoin, stablecoin, new coin, another stablecoin, etc.) via multiple assets as opposed to one network. That one way is the only way and rightfully so, the bookkeeping, the ledger analysis would be simple, clear, and true. A phone is a right of a human being. It's a 'liquid right' (which was once locked) in that regard, now unlocked and split in cost however many ways the person chooses (data plans type of thing). 

Edited by Guest
Julian tag

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1 hour ago, BobWay said:

...

I think xCurrent has a huge advantage. I just happened to give some details about KYC/AML/OFAC in the post I just wrote, linked here. But in this bit of Ripple marketing collateral on page 18 you see mention of "Rulebook & Advisory Board". I can assure you that one seemingly boring, insignificant, non-crypt, non-sexy two pages, is worth more than all of the partnerships announcements and rumors you see and speculate on every day.

...

Thank you :girl_in_love:

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13 hours ago, BobWay said:

Happy to answer, I copied your original questions below.

I think xCurrent has a huge advantage. I just happened to give some details about KYC/AML/OFAC in the post I just wrote, linked here. But in this bit of Ripple marketing collateral on page 18 you see mention of "Rulebook & Advisory Board". I can assure you that one seemingly boring, insignificant, non-crypto, non-sexy two pages, is worth more than all of the partnerships announcements and rumors you see and speculate on every day.

The same two places I linked just above should give you some clear insights as well. Here and Here.

I'd like to answer, but I'm not sure of your exact question. Could you clarify what you are seeking to understand in the first.

And define NV/VN problem in the second.

And clarify the phone metaphor as well, and perhaps what you mean by "free liquidity".

Thanks a lot . xCurrent was the main reason I moved all my BTC to XRP in 2017. I am always impressed with Ripple's desire to work within regulatory and compliance work.  Much appreciated your pointers towards KYC/AML documentation.

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On 3/19/2019 at 6:45 AM, BobWay said:

I can assure you that one seemingly boring, insignificant, non-crypto, non-sexy two pages, is worth more than all of the partnerships announcements and rumors you see and speculate on every day.

Hi Bob, I read that "page 18" you're referring to.

Can you please tell us if it describes the same massive simplification of bureaucratic burdens you already explained here?

https://www.xrpchat.com/topic/30588-hi-im-bob/?do=findComment&comment=677836

 

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6 hours ago, Dario_o said:

Hi Bob, I read that "page 18" you're referring to.

Can you please tell us if it describes the same massive simplification of bureaucratic burdens you already explained here?

https://www.xrpchat.com/topic/30588-hi-im-bob/?do=findComment&comment=677836

It does. But it is not specific to that particular use case. It simplifies messaging formats, error processes, etc and defines some common required behavior of participants. A goal is what Ripple publishes in their documentation as "Access". If you join RippleNet, you should be able to send payment to EVERY other RippleNet participant. So there needs to be a standard way of communication the important information that is NOT money movement. And when there is an exception in the payment process, today in current banking process, the recovery process is for one HUMAN to pick up the phone and call another HUMAN and try to figure out how the fix the problem. That seems silly in this day and age.

How each participant wants to "settle" with others is left for each to decide on their own. That is what allows the solutions you reference above.

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Welcome ChazzCoin!

10 hours ago, ChazzCoin said:

@BobWay! I've been sitting back watching the ripple community for years now. Long time believer and hodler. It's people like you that have brought me out of hiding and made me realize that I better start learning rippled... Now. 

Being a Mobile developer, haha, surprise, I'm building my first mobile wallet and then, well, I guess not only is that why I'm here but the sky is the limit. 

If you have any ideas I haven't seen in here yet that's mobile based, would love to hear it! And by all means, please help, I am open source all day! It's how we grow, how we evolve. 

Thank you for being here, your insights are absolutely priceless to me. 

I'm replying here because I intended this thread to talk about great ideas like yours. Yes, by all means work on a daily use wallet for the XRP Ledger. Then add features that allow you to hold accounts via ILP protocols as well (Talk to Coil).

I think making your phone your wallet is going to be the killer app. A cool think to research is how the user experience could be improved through NFC "tap and pay". Most people think of that as a card payment protocol. But in fact there is an additional "Value Added Services Protocol" (Apple Name) or "Smart Tap" (Google Name) that could be used to setup rippling payments.

 

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Welcome strikerjax!

9 hours ago, strikerjax said:

@Chazzcoin 

one thing thats missing in the XRP ecosystem is an equivalent of localbitcoin.com 

Its really useful for people around the world where the financial systems are shaky and provides liquidity. 

I encourage everyone to look into things they can do right now. This could be one of them.

But I also encourage people to study their own local laws before calling what you are doing "a business". If you sell XRP from your own stack for your own personal reasons, no one seem to have a problem with that. But if you offer buying and selling as an advertised service, I'd clear you plans through your own trusted legal counsel first.

 

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Posted (edited)

One of the things I was curious about is how significant 5G's rollout could be (in certain areas where there will be earlier adoption of 5G) for a phone as wallet app. For instance if someone has a weaker data plan vs. another; how that affects transaction speed and data cost (cutting into cross border savings).  

And if someone has access to an abundance of data could they offload some of that speed to someone without it, monetizing different cost structures.

Broadband loans and grants for rural areas in the coming digital divide: https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RL33816.html

Edited by Guest

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