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Is XRP approaching the "knee of an exponential curve"?

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11 minutes ago, Tinyaccount said:

Were you around then?  How do you know this.  

Quote

by FinSin » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:21 pm

https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7388

You have to pay a fee in XRP to access the Ledger for a transaction. The fee is 0.00001 XRP per transaction. 

A ledger transaction is...
1. An Offer (buy/sell)
2. Setting a Trust Line
3. A Payment. 

You also have to meet the account Reserve Requirement. in XRP.

Lets say you want to set up a network to make payments with 500 people. You have to increase your reserve by 5 XRP per Trust Line, you need 500 Trust Lines, so it would cost you 2500 XRP ($16.25, @ $.0065/XRP) to set up this network of Trust Lines and meet the reserve requirement, + the 20 XRP for the simple Account reserve. 

After you have set up the network, you will want to make payments. Say you make one payment per month, per person (like a monthly bill), there is a transaction cost, 0.00001 XRP for each of these 500 transactions. You need to have the XRP to pay for your transactions. Total monthly cost is $0.0000325 for 500 Payment transactions. 

Your need for XRP is similar to Utility Value in economics. You must to have XRP to access the ledger. This makes the value of XRP = the value of accessing the Ripple Ledger. 

Whatever cost savings can be achieved by accessing the Ripple Ledger, is a good place to start for coming up with a real world value for XRP.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Transaction_Fee
https://ripple.com/wiki/Reserves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility

I was FinSin back then, and I'm not 100% sure I was the absolute first, but I was at least among the first to point out the "Utility Value" of XRP, within the framework of the XRPLedger. 

I was also the first one to use the "postal stamp" example (on the old forum as FinSin), which Greg Kidd uses in his explanation of things to the Canadian Congress here. I'm not sure the minute mark, but I know he uses the analogy.

FinSin was supposed to be a joke, as I knew Ripple would run into the jurisdiction of FinCEN if they were going to go down the road they were talking about going down. Then FinCEN came in and shut down RipppleTrade.com and fined Ripple $750k... which I observed at the time to be FinCEN saying... "Carry on with what your are doing here"

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3 hours ago, KarmaCoverage said:

I was FinSin back then, and I'm not 100% sure I was the absolute first, but I was at least among the first to point out the "Utility Value" of XRP, within the framework of the XRPLedger

Thanks for the detailed reply and my respect for being there from the early days.  

To be honest though I’m still not convinced.  I understand and agree that XRP has the utility value that you described,  but I’m not convinced that is it’s only, or even its main,  value....   even in the early vision for XRP.  

Certainly I can see that you considered it so,  and made a case for that.  But I’m hoping to hear from a third party to see if there were other views.  

Most times when I wander this deep into something I’m unfamiliar with,  I turn out to be wrong...   so it won’t be a surprise if that’s again the case here.

I hope you can forgive me for being such a sceptical person, but the large number chosen as XRP supply seems to argue against a mere network fee token value.  

Perhaps I’m wrong.  Maybe others will chime in and prove me so or otherwise.  

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11 minutes ago, Tinyaccount said:

forgive me for being such a sceptical person,

I'm just an internet monkey sitting on a rock. Ask all the questions you can think of, and be sceptical enough to find trustworthy answers. 

12 minutes ago, Tinyaccount said:

but the large number chosen as XRP supply seems to argue against a mere network fee token value

There are 2 types of utility value which XRP can have.

1. TX fee (Postage Stamp)

2. Value being transferred (letter/contents in the envelope)

This is not an exhaustive list of value drivers for XRP. Just the two ways XRP can drive "Utility Value" within the framework of RippleNet & and IoV.

There is nothing of value to any of this without the transaction network.

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1 hour ago, Tinyaccount said:

but I’m not convinced that is it’s only, or even its main,  value....   even in the early vision for XRP.  

As he says...

Quote

https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3

by JoelKatz » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:58 pm

Transaction fees in our system serve only two purposes. One is to discourage spam transactions and ledger bloat by imposing a fee comparable to the actual costs involved. The other is to handle short-term overload and DDoS conditions by forcing the attacker to spend money and allowing victims to get their transactions in by spending more on their one important transaction than a flood attacker is placing on each of his thousands of transactions. Destroying the fees best serves this purpose for two reasons. First, it ensures the attacker pays the full fee and can't trick his way into getting some of it back. Second, it enriches everyone who holds Ripples so they're not too upset at the reduced availability

I think as things have matured, we can add the value of being the payload or value being moved through the network as a type of utility for XRP.

The first major step in in this direction was on-ledger with "Synthetic Orderbooks". The second step in this direction was post ILP, and it was making XRPLedger the bridge ledger in an ILP world (using XRP to transact).

---

Was looking through some old forum posts and found where I first posted about KarmaCoverage.

Ideas have changed since back then.

 

Edited by KarmaCoverage

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1 hour ago, KarmaCoverage said:

2. Value being transferred (letter/contents in the envelope)

Ah...   yes absolutely I can agree with this.

But that is not what you were saying to start this dialogue.  I would have had no problem with this additional source of value and wouldn’t have piped up. 

Perhaps I simply misunderstood you.

 

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1 minute ago, Tinyaccount said:

But that is not what you were saying to start this dialogue.

Not that it really matters, but that was point #2.

I just hope I'm helping people understand better. No sense in being non-helpful.

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5 minutes ago, KarmaCoverage said:

Not that it really matters, but that was point #2.

I just hope I'm helping people understand better. No sense in being non-helpful.

Yes you are certainly a helpful source of info and it is appreciated.  

I think it was me that got the wrong idea and ran with it.  Thank you for your patience.  

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44 minutes ago, lucky said:

The original idea was "bitcoin without mining".

Lets not try to rewrite history.

Yes, and this thread talks about consensus algorithms, not coins/tokens.

About the use case for XRP: I still don't view them as anything other than anti-spam tokens, they are a very poor store of value (since their value correlates strongly with all other cryptocurrencies out there) and if you want to transfer value quickly, you don't need to use XRP either. The only thing that was added to make them a bit more useful as money was payment channels and escrow. Still the economics around them make them extremely unattractive to me.

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14 minutes ago, Sukrim said:

I still don't view them as anything other than anti-spam tokens

If that is true why are there 100 billion of them to pay fees that are less than a ten thousandth of a token?

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1 minute ago, Sukrim said:

Yes, and this thread talks about consensus algorithms, not coins/tokens.

About the use case for XRP: I still don't view them as anything other than anti-spam tokens, they are a very poor store of value (since their value correlates strongly with all other cryptocurrencies out there) and if you want to transfer value quickly, you don't need to use XRP either. The only thing that was added to make them a bit more useful as money was payment channels and escrow. Still the economics around them make them extremely unattractive to me.

Decentralized digital assets are the only form of money that is pure data. That is a requirement to make money transferable over the Internet as pure data. I can't imagine that after all these years following this project, you don't see the immense advantage of that.

Your objection seems to be asset distribution. If you have a better plan, I am eager to hear it! I don't know a better and more fair way than to sell them at over 100 exchanges worldwide.

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1 hour ago, Sukrim said:

Yes, and this thread talks about consensus algorithms, not coins/tokens.

About the use case for XRP: I still don't view them as anything other than anti-spam tokens, they are a very poor store of value (since their value correlates strongly with all other cryptocurrencies out there) and if you want to transfer value quickly, you don't need to use XRP either. The only thing that was added to make them a bit more useful as money was payment channels and escrow. Still the economics around them make them extremely unattractive to me.

Have exited you XRP investment yet? Just curious as that XRP use case you have described in your OP does not look attractive at all to me. 

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7 minutes ago, Tinyaccount said:

If that is true why are there 100 billion of them to pay fees that are less than a ten thousandth of a token?

Because it needs capacity. After all you might want to use it for a while before you require global consensus and a hardfork to create new tokens.

3 minutes ago, lucky said:

If you have a better plan, I am eager to hear it!

As long as XRP are used as anti spam tokens, there's no real need to distribute them fairly. You can just sell them around the current market value since nobody needs large amounts of them anyways.

1 hour ago, WillGetThere said:

Have exited you XRP investment yet?

I'm not sure what this sentence is supposed to mean.

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27 minutes ago, Sukrim said:

As long as XRP are used as anti spam tokens, there's no real need to distribute them fairly. You can just sell them around the current market value since nobody needs large amounts of them anyways.

I’ll take that as a confirmation that after spending years in this forum, you still do not see the advantage of being able to send money as easy as data? Or you don’t see why only cryptographic digital assets have this potential?

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30 minutes ago, lucky said:

I’ll take that as a confirmation that after spending years in this forum, you still do not see the advantage of being able to send money as easy as data? Or you don’t see why only cryptographic digital assets have this potential?

I'm coming from the ages before internet and email.... Still remember my first email, not knowing by then how this could turn out into the world's most used P2P communication channel. Now (2013) I've had the same experience, and it started with Ripple and .... XRP.  Have been sending, exchanging them around the globe... as easy as my first (command line) emails. 
The only difference this time is that I now KNOW how it can (will) turn out.... Very much longing to the days to come when I can take my smartphone and send some $$$ over the globe only by knowing a sort of ILP-pointer of the person I want to send it to.

Just like we have today email addresses or other ID pointers - linked to email or social services this ILP pointer will be linked to our value ledger(s) of choice (being "a bank" or called whatever)

I have a dream.... and it's coming closer ....

Oh ... and will XRP get a value from this? As far as I can see it now, XRP has a good place in the only plan that is clear enough to get it at work in reality. No other plan than the Ripplenet (build on Interledger) fits better into that dream. And XRP as a bridge WILL get a role in that plan. And that role WILL give it a value but ... the only thing nobody knows, is how high that value can grow.... But you can't deny... a low value still IS a value.

 

Edited by kanaas

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