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I recently got invited to join coil. Yay me! ;)

Under the youtube/twitch section, it says that "coil will send money to them using their existing donation systems". I'm curious as to how this works. On Twitch they have subscribers and bits as "donation systems", youtube has the option of donating directly to the channel (as long as they are streaming). How does coil integrate with does services? Are there other donation systems?

Also, how does it look on the other end of the youtuber/twitcherrrr receiving the money? Where does the money show up? Is it simply just a donation with a "coil" message attached? Can you decide on what currency you want the money in? 

And finally, does coil utilize XRP today? The coil subscription is paid in USD so my guess would be no.

 

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26 minutes ago, RAINBOWDASH said:

I recently got invited to join coil. Yay me! ;)

Under the youtube/twitch section, it says that "coil will send money to them using their existing donation systems". I'm curious as to how this works. On Twitch they have subscribers and bits as "donation systems", youtube has the option of donating directly to the channel (as long as they are streaming). How does coil integrate with does services? Are there other donation systems?

Also, how does it look on the other end of the youtuber/twitcherrrr receiving the money? Where does the money show up? Is it simply just a donation with a "coil" message attached? Can you decide on what currency you want the money in? 

And finally, does coil utilize XRP today? The coil subscription is paid in USD so my guess would be no.

*SPECULATION*

Me too! I was wondering the same thing actually and this is my guess: Youtube and Twitch are using some 3rd party payment provider. This provider is in no way connected to the ILP or ripple. Therefore, micro-payments are not an alternative. Coil still gives the impression that micro transactions are occurring when watching youtube/twitch, which is kind of dishonest. Instead, I think that Coil sends larger batches, maybe hourly/daily/weekly through the existing tipping infrastructure of youtube/twitch. Just maybe, maaaybe, XRP is involved on the way to twitch/youtubes 3rd party payment provider. The last leg of the trip though i think definitely uses a traditional payment system, and the chain is no stronger than its weakest link therefore it seems impossible that actual micro transactions are occurring to these sites.

*SPECULATION*

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If you are a content creator and want to start receiving payments from Coil you need to provide your Payment Pointer. You can create one at xrptipbot.  This is your personal ILP endpoint where you will receive payments.

When - on the other side - you are part of the coil program and want to pay for monetised content, you download a chrome extension to your browser. When you log-in, you will be able to identify yourself at one of the coil ILP providers. So if you are looking in your browser to web-monetised content, your browser will start the coil-extension, which will use ILP to contact a coil-ILP provider. Because the coil-extension (which is an ILP connector) has a relationship with the coil-ILP-providers (it knows who is logged in at the coil-extension), the coil-endpoint can use you account-money and start an ILP session with the next endpoint. In case that endpoint would be my xrptipbot-account, it would start an ILP-session with the ILP-connector where XRPtipbot is connected to and transfer funds. 

Now if you also create content on youtube, then you can attach your google account at coil website. It mentions in the FAQ the following: 

Quote

Q: What platforms does Coil support?

A: Coil includes an extension that works in Google Chrome. This allows us to donate to creators on sites like Youtube and Twitch that accept donations. There's limited support on other browsers, including mobile, allowing you to use sites that integrate the Web Monetization standard themselves.

Thus, what I *SPECULATION* think happens, is that the extension sees the account owner (the google account) of the youtube channel I am watching, and somehow resolves that to the ILP-endpoint from the content creator. The problem here is where does the translation from google account to ILP-endpoint takes place. I see 3 options:

1) The chrome-extension makes a call to an url-service from coil to receive the corresponding content creator's ILP-endpoint and then makes the ILP-payment

2) The chrome-extension makes the ILP-payment to a coil-ILP-endpoint with the google account in the name and then coil forwards it again to the content creator's ILP-endpoint (which would mean that 2 separate ILP payments are made)

3) The ILP-endpoint is somehow stored at the google-account and can be directly retrieved by the coil-browser-extension. The extension can then directly make the ILP-payment

I have tried the process of attaching my google account and it required for coil to have access to change some setting in my google account. So I suspect that option 3 is the one that is used. (which would also be the most decentralised one..)

Edited by jn_r

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3 hours ago, jn_r said:

If you are a content creator and want to start receiving payments from Coil you need to provide your Payment Pointer. You can create one at xrptipbot.  This is your personal ILP endpoint where you will receive payments.

When - on the other side - you are part of the coil program and want to pay for monetised content, you download a chrome extension to your browser. When you log-in, you will be able to identify yourself at one of the coil ILP providers. So if you are looking in your browser to web-monetised content, your browser will start the coil-extension, which will use ILP to contact a coil-ILP provider. Because the coil-extension (which is an ILP connector) has a relationship with the coil-ILP-providers (it knows who is logged in at the coil-extension), the coil-endpoint can use you account-money and start an ILP session with the next endpoint. In case that endpoint would be my xrptipbot-account, it would start an ILP-session with the ILP-connector where XRPtipbot is connected to and transfer funds. 

Now if you also create content on youtube, then you can attach your google account at coil website. It mentions in the FAQ the following: 

Thus, what I *SPECULATION* think happens, is that the extension sees the account owner (the google account) of the youtube channel I am watching, and somehow resolves that to the ILP-endpoint from the content creator. The problem here is where does the translation from google account to ILP-endpoint takes place. I see 3 options:

1) The chrome-extension makes a call to an url-service from coil to receive the corresponding content creator's ILP-endpoint and then makes the ILP-payment

2) The chrome-extension makes the ILP-payment to a coil-ILP-endpoint with the google account in the name and then coil forwards it again to the content creator's ILP-endpoint (which would mean that 2 separate ILP payments are made)

3) The ILP-endpoint is somehow stored at the google-account and can be directly retrieved by the coil-browser-extension. The extension can then directly make the ILP-payment

I have tried the process of attaching my google account and it required for coil to have access to change some setting in my google account. So I suspect that option 3 is the one that is used. (which would also be the most decentralised one..)

But wouldn't that mean that every content creator on twitch need to sign up for an XRP wallet? Because the donations are working on every channel thus far for me on twitch. That doesn't seem realistic.

Edit: Ok i actually opened the extension and found this

image.png.16ad296f8e5cd9f4eefe24a0c3ec0e99.png

Esit 2: And that was exactly what op posted too... :rolleyes:

Edited by opaopa

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15 minutes ago, opaopa said:

But wouldn't that mean that every content creator on twitch need to sign up for an XRP wallet? Because the donations are working on every channel thus far for me on twitch. That doesn't seem realistic.

I don't know how twitch works. Do you receive twitch bits? The coil page mentions:

Quote

Twitch is supported

If you have a Twitch Partner or affiliate account, Coil will pay out Twitch Bits to you whenever Coil subscribers are watching your stream.

There is no need to link your account here.

In that case I think the connection from coil-extension to coil-ILP-provider is ILP, but coil will then be the endpoint and send the Twitch Bits (what a name) via their own system.

But if you use youtube it is different, you actually receive the funds in you ILP payment pointer. I have tested that (connecting my sons google-account and watching his youtube channel) and I received some XRP in my xrp-payment-pointer.

Edited by jn_r

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I've never actually seen a coil twitch donation go through, but I think with twitch they're using fiat to donate twitch bits, as there's already an existing monetization scheme in place so no real need to use ILP at all.

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1 hour ago, jn_r said:

I don't know how twitch works. Do you receive twitch bits? The coil page mentions:

In that case I think the connection from coil-extension to coil-ILP-provider is ILP, but coil will then be the endpoint and send the Twitch Bits (what a name) via their own system.

But if you use youtube it is different, you actually receive the funds in you ILP payment pointer. I have tested that (connecting my sons google-account and watching his youtube channel) and I received some XRP in my xrp-payment-pointer.

Cool! I learnt something! :)

It seems to suggest collaboration between Ripple/ILP and Google then. Like... active collaboration.

Edited by opaopa

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32 minutes ago, opaopa said:

Cool! I learnt something! :)

It seems to suggest collaboration between Ripple/ILP and Google then. Like... active collaboration.

I wouldn't say collaboration. I think if they use your google-account that it's just a generic property field (but I haven't found it yet) of your google-account that coil uses to place your ILP-paymentpointer in

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Ok, so I did some network-debugging on a youtube session and it is not option 3 but option 1:

1) The chrome-extension makes a call to an url-service from coil to receive the corresponding content creator's ILP-endpoint and then makes the ILP-payment

They call an endpoint at the coil website where they request the corresponding ILP-payment-pointer that is linked to a certain youtube website. And then respond with the ILP-payment-pointer, which then can be used by the coil-extension. Must say, I am a bit disappointed by this, since they do this for every youtube call I make, which is a bit of a privacy thing. I'd rather have seen option 3 implemented..

Edit: I also did a network-debug session on a twitch session and there the same happens. First a call to coil to retrieve the ILP pointer. The difference is that now a payment-pointer at coil is provided ($spsp.coil.com/twitch/< twitch-account >) so it basically works as I previously described, the payment from browser to coil is ILP and then from coil to twitch I can't see, but it will be based on the twitch/bit system.

 

Edited by jn_r

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51 minutes ago, jn_r said:

Ok, so I did some network-debugging on a youtube session and it is not option 3 but option 1:

1) The chrome-extension makes a call to an url-service from coil to receive the corresponding content creator's ILP-endpoint and then makes the ILP-payment

They call an endpoint at the coil website where they request the corresponding ILP-payment-pointer that is linked to a certain youtube website. And then respond with the ILP-payment-pointer, which then can be used by the coil-extension. Must say, I am a bit disappointed by this, since they do this for every youtube call I make, which is a bit of a privacy thing. I'd rather have seen option 3 implemented..

 

 

Is that just for youtube?  I'd be curious to know if they're doing that for every site you visit.

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5 minutes ago, enran said:

Is that just for youtube?  I'd be curious to know if they're doing that for every site you visit.

only for twitch and youtube.

If you want to see for yourself, open a chrome browser (and be coil-enabled), open the 'inspect' window (alt-cmd-i on a mac) and in there the tab 'network'. filter on 'coil'

Edited by jn_r

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1 hour ago, jn_r said:

Ok, so I did some network-debugging on a youtube session and it is not option 3 but option 1:

1) The chrome-extension makes a call to an url-service from coil to receive the corresponding content creator's ILP-endpoint and then makes the ILP-payment

Thanks for doing what I have so far been too lazy to do.  I’ve been idly wondering about it but haven’t even got a pc available these days....  just an iPad.  

I (and no doubt many others) appreciate you sharing your exploration.

The other thing I’m wondering about is the way the payment runs....  after the endpoint is received and it makes a payment does another follow later? And so on?

Because to me the best arranagement is if the creator can configure how they will be paid in terms of amounts and times, or perhaps checkpoints.  Eg a stream of video might be a micropayment every second. Or perhaps a bigger one at start and smaller ones every ten seconds etc.  Or perhaps a short story might need a two way conversation where after the payment is received then another chunk of story is served.  (That call response breaks the model of opt-in but ultimately I think it’s going to have to go that way).

Forgive me please if all this is known already...  as I say I haven’t looked into Coil much yet.

Anyway, long and short of it is thanks for anyone that investigates and clarifies all this (for those of us too lazy,  or without the tools to do it).

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18 minutes ago, Tinyaccount said:

Thanks for doing what I have so far been too lazy to do.  I’ve been idly wondering about it but haven’t even got a pc available these days....  just an iPad.  

I (and no doubt many others) appreciate you sharing your exploration.

The other thing I’m wondering about is the way the payment runs....  after the endpoint is received and it makes a payment does another follow later? And so on?

Because to me the best arranagement is if the creator can configure how they will be paid in terms of amounts and times, or perhaps checkpoints.  Eg a stream of video might be a micropayment every second. Or perhaps a bigger one at start and smaller ones every ten seconds etc.  Or perhaps a short story might need a two way conversation where after the payment is received then another chunk of story is served.  (That call response breaks the model of opt-in but ultimately I think it’s going to have to go that way).

Forgive me please if all this is known already...  as I say I haven’t looked into Coil much yet.

Anyway, long and short of it is thanks for anyone that investigates and clarifies all this (for those of us too lazy,  or without the tools to do it).

What I can see, you receive a JWT token with the following content:

{
  "userId": "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx",
  "throughput": 100000,
  "currency": "USD",
  "scale": 9,
  "iat": 1547251202,
  "exp": 1548460802
}

iat is issued time, exp is expiration time. When the token is expired a new request is done and coil can recalculate and maybe change the throughput. I am not sure what the frequency of the 0.0001 USD payment is, seems like +/- 30 seconds. You do not have control over this yourself, coil calculates all this for you..

I also see that a call is then made to the SPSP (simple payment service provider) https://twitter.xrptipbot.com/<name> in this case - and according to ILP protocol it returns - the -lowlevel- ILP account, which is hosted at strata. Now that this endpoint is known, a low-level BTP (Bilateral Transfer Protocol) message is sent to coil's ILP-endpoint to start the actual ILP-payment. this payment is then repeated every 30 seconds.

hmm, hope I interpreted that correct and if at all understandable :-) I have some foreknowledge as I did some research on ILP previously. If you read through the ILP-github it is all there, it's just not that easy

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Excellent info thanks @jn_r 

52 minutes ago, jn_r said:

seems like +/- 30 seconds. You do not have control over this yourself, coil calculates all this for you..

Is it not possible that the parameters say Amount, and FrequencySeconds ( my made up params) are set by the content creator when registering for Coil?   Because one size fits all might not be the best model if we want to have different creators ‘worth’ more or less Coil payments.

I feel like I’m being lazy asking here...  it’s probably all available on Coil or Github.

57 minutes ago, jn_r said:

If you read through the ILP-github it is all there, it's just not that easy

It’s enough to scare off the lazy...    which is me.   :) 

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