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XRP deemed not a security in Europe...

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On 1/11/2019 at 8:07 PM, BibleChronologyXRP said:

I first heard this " the first thing " when I was 11 years old, from a schoolmate. No comment. I just don't trust anyone talk this way, no offence, just personal taste.

Children alway learn too late that their friends are as clueless as themselves. 

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On 1/11/2019 at 11:07 AM, BibleChronologyXRP said:

I first heard this " the first thing " when I was 11 years old, from a schoolmate. No comment. I just don't trust anyone talk this way, no offence, just personal taste.

That's quite irrational and not a healthy way to live your life. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.

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Why is this news? It is the United States that holds all of the cards. Europe’s rulings are irrelevant until the US decides.

I believe RL has painted themselves into a tricky corner.  They want XRP to be treated like an asset, available to the public, at published market prices. This is normal and fair for businesses. However at the same time they want to give (at discounted, secret rates) huge amounts to insiders, as incentives to work with Ripple. This is very much like a security.

It is illegal to have 2 pricing schemes for “publicly available assets” This behavior is only allowed for securities. I understand they can sell a product, at reduced rates, for bulk purchases; BUT the same offer has to be available to all, otherwise it is too similar to a preferred stock option. I have always felt that the under the counter (off market) trading, that RL participates in, is less than ethical, and borderline scam. 

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1 hour ago, Valhalla_Guy said:

Why is this news? It is the United States that holds all of the cards. Europe’s rulings are irrelevant until the US decides.

I believe RL has painted themselves into a tricky corner.  They want XRP to be treated like an asset, available to the public, at published market prices. This is normal and fair for businesses. However at the same time they want to give (at discounted, secret rates) huge amounts to insiders, as incentives to work with Ripple. This is very much like a security.

It is illegal to have 2 pricing schemes for “publicly available assets” This behavior is only allowed for securities. I understand they can sell a product, at reduced rates, for bulk purchases; BUT the same offer has to be available to all, otherwise it is too similar to a preferred stock option. I have always felt that the under the counter (off market) trading, that RL participates in, is less than ethical, and borderline scam. 

Show me the evidence that they are selling over the counter at "secret discounted rates". You're just full of ..it otherwise.

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2 hours ago, BluKoo said:

That's quite irrational and not a healthy way to live your life. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.

people think to know more than you , will betray or try to deceive you. This a bible commandment for me

 

3 hours ago, LordVetinari said:

Children alway learn too late that their friends are as clueless as themselves. 

someone never learn , even if adult

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57 minutes ago, VanGogh said:

Show me the evidence that they are selling over the counter at "secret discounted rates". You're just full of ..it otherwise

This has bothered me otc , I've seen quotes that it is three times the volume than through exchanges, I understand the revenue created from otc funds the ability for ripple to expand and pay for infrastructure, development projects and the like, why do you think there otc sales ? Only volume alone ?I'm sure exchanges can handle volume,  There must be some incentives for companies to purchase this way (wholesale) where us purchase through exchanges (retail). Oh well, it is what it is , this topic has been thrashed in other threads . I'll go and have breakfast, I'm a grizzly bear until I've eaten. :ireful1:  

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On 1/10/2019 at 6:55 PM, RippleGambler said:

Click bait title as I think the debate is still ongoing but from the latest guidance issued by ESMA then XRP is heading towards the 'not a security' bracket. 

Here is why:

https://www.esma.europa.eu/press-news/esma-news/crypto-assets-need-common-eu-wide-approach-ensure-investor-protection

Download the advice on crypto assets: https://www.esma.europa.eu/file/49978/download?token=56LqdNMN

On page 5 at paragraph 6:

6. The outcome of the survey highlighted a NCA majority view that some crypto-assets, 
e.g. those with profit rights attached, may qualify as transferable securities or other types 
of MiFID financial instruments. The actual classification of a crypto-asset as a financial 
instrument is the responsibility of an individual NCA and will depend on the specific 
national implementation of EU law and the information and evidence provided to that 
NCA. The results of the Survey made clear that the Member State NCAs in the course 
of transposing MiFID into their national laws, have in turn defined the term financial 
instrument differently. While some employ a restrictive list of examples to define 
transferable securities, others use broader interpretations. This creates challenges to
both the regulation and to the supervision of crypto-assets.

 

XRP has no profit rights attached to it. Therefore it is not a financial instrument under MiFID or a transferable security. 

Well done Europe for the common sense approach. Over to you America....

It would be awesome but this is misleading. It doesn't say that profit rights attached is a requirement to be considered a security. 

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1 hour ago, Truckdriver said:

This has bothered me otc , I've seen quotes that it is three times the volume than through exchanges, I understand the revenue created from otc funds the ability for ripple to expand and pay for infrastructure, development projects and the like, why do you think there otc sales ? Only volume alone ?I'm sure exchanges can handle volume,  There must be some incentives for companies to purchase this way (wholesale) where us purchase through exchanges (retail). Oh well, it is what it is , this topic has been thrashed in other threads . I'll go and have breakfast, I'm a grizzly bear until I've eaten. :ireful1:  

I am not aware of any concrete information that they are or aren't offering discounts to large, over-the-counter purchases. I don't think they are. In thinking about it, I can see a situation where Ripple is still in the mode where they are incentivizing financial institutions, banks, large corporations, etc. to buy into their ecosystem. While the infrastructure and ecosystems are being built you would not want large price spikes; yet, you'd still want these entities to buy in. What would cause large price spikes? Volume on the open market. I suppose you could give them a price break for a large volume purchase, but I don't think that is what is happening, and I don't know what the legal ramifications would be. I think it makes sense that the big players are buying over the counter at Ripple's request in order to keep the volume lower and the price more stable while the ecosystem continues to build out. It would be in the interest of both buyer and seller if they believe in the project at all. The time will come when this phase is over or the overlap of the buildout and use is significant.

You might say, well, why would the larger players want to go about it this way? Because like us they are still very early to the table, and they may wish to hold a significant amount, enough that could move volume a fair amount. The incentive is that these companies who are buying now will be in when the price does begin to start rising with significant volume. If Ripple is successful, then this phase will end, and utilization of xrp will be the new phase. In this phase the entities who got in early will already have xrp, use will bring the volume up, then more players will be forced to join in and buy xrp because the benefits will greatly outweigh the old system of operation. Use will further increase to a point where even the early big players who are currently buying over the counter will be forced to buy more on the open market because use is in full swing. The price will go up accordingly. How fast or how slow this happens I couldn't tell you. I'm a little impatient myself, and certainly don't blame you for expressing a little frustration. Best of luck.

Edited by VanGogh

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2 hours ago, Truckdriver said:

This has bothered me otc , I've seen quotes that it is three times the volume than through exchanges, I understand the revenue created from otc funds the ability for ripple to expand and pay for infrastructure, development projects and the like, why do you think there otc sales ? Only volume alone ?I'm sure exchanges can handle volume,  There must be some incentives for companies to purchase this way (wholesale) where us purchase through exchanges (retail). Oh well, it is what it is , this topic has been thrashed in other threads . I'll go and have breakfast, I'm a grizzly bear until I've eaten. :ireful1:  

I have repeatedly ( it seems almost endlessly) debunked this idea on this forum.  

There is zero evidence XRP is sold OTC cheaper than market.  There is some evidence that it is done at a slightly higher price.  

There is a lot of evidence that higher sized chunks have caveats and controls on the sales to ensure no harm comes to the market from a dump of the purchased XRP.

A normal OTC is done at the current midpoint of the spread between bid and offer.

The reason firms buy OTC rather than at the market is because of slippage.  There just isn’t a large enough order book with huge bids to manage the intended purchase,  so if done at market it would cost much more than the intended, and current, price.

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1 hour ago, VanGogh said:

The price will go up accordingly. How fast or how slow this happens I couldn't tell you. I'm a little impatient myself, and certainly don't blame you for expressing a little frustration. Best of luck.

Firstly great explanation in your response, one of the best I've read,  thanks for that very much appreciated, there's many things I don't understand about otc ,accounting side , slippage and a few valid points you made, the fact there is otc has to be a great thing, as it shows massive interest(from the big players) in what you and i believe to be great investment, with the price fluctuations ,we have that anyway with crypto as a whole and once we disassociate ourselves from pow we should have more stabilization in price ( but at a much higher rate) . This forum is great a resource for all , we all have different levels of intellect. I'm looking forward to the conversation the community will be having on the next bull run , I don't think there will be much negativity apart from a few ( cant please everyone) 

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3 minutes ago, Tinyaccount said:

have repeatedly ( it seems almost endlessly) debunked this idea on this forum.

I know you  have , I was reading them as you posted this response you incredibly intelligent Australian :D if your as half as good looking as you are intelligent,  well I'd say you'd put George Clooney to shame :bye: lol thanks for your response 

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Just now, Truckdriver said:

I know you  have , I was reading them as you posted this response you incredibly intelligent Australian :D if your as half as good looking as you are intelligent,  well I'd say you'd put George Clooney to shame :bye: lol thanks for your response 

Sadly I’m neither....  but I would venture that I’m better at relaxing than George.  It’s my only real skill.   :) 

The other thing I forgot to mention is that unless David Schwartz is a liar, or unaware of how Ripple operates,  then they do NOT sell cheap.  At least as of the last six months or so (I think in that time frame) when he said that.

Valhalla bloke has had a bee in his bonnet about this imaginary cheap OTC for a good while...  surely if he had a skerrick of evidence to present (in the face of the real evidence previously presented against it) he would have come up with it by now.

People get a conspiracy idea in their head then won’t let it go no matter what.

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6 minutes ago, Tinyaccount said:

The other thing I forgot to mention is that unless David Schwartz is a liar, or unaware of how Ripple operates,  then they do NOT sell cheap.  At least as of the last six months or so (I think in that time frame) when he said that.

Many thanks for that, i didn't know he stated that , any thing he says I take as gospel  ,anyway,  you had me at hello (I'm not flirting) I know you have a great sense of humor, enjoy your day 

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So, we accept that Ripple sells otc to institutional buyers with restrictions attatched, for strategic reasons.

I would like to hear the oppinions from all sides of the camp regarding Exchanges that operate a public ordebook AND a private OTC service whether at market price or otherwise, whether any restrictions or not on resale, what implications, ramifications this practice has on the market, economically, ethicaly, legally 

any thoughts regarding this?

 

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