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WillGetThere

Interesting debate on Twitter involving David Schwartz, Tom Channik, Ari Paul, Rob Lee

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13 hours ago, ImTheRippler said:

A good example of this is crap like Chase Pay. It doesn’t work and nobody uses it because it’s NOT INTEROPERABLE. Oh you don’t have Chase? Guess we’re back to Fintech (Venmo/PayPal) because it’s too closed to solve the users problems 

Chase pay went under years ago. Zelle is the crossbank standard now that Venmo is just crushing this area. Not even Apple Pay can catch up and it’s Apple

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12 hours ago, lucky said:

people are starting to see the forest for the trees:

 

Love it

Couple of questions/comments please:

1. 'Everybody is trained to HODL so bad after January's collapse, you're all waiting for it to rise to cash out. That's the only reason it's still around.' - the same words can be directed towards XRP (or to any other coin roughly) i believe, with the difference that BTC is down from ATH less than XRP (% wise).

2. When i looked at the votes the distribution was 54/46 in favour of XRP, so we are far away from 75/25 yet unfortunately. I've been hearing about the soonest death of BTC for years now with no luck - its still here. Having said so i do think BTC is still the King and is not going anywhere within short to midterm. Unfortunately.

3. I know you @lucky are (so as I) pro BCH, the real Bitcoin. Isn't it more or less the same environmental unfriendly beast as BTC, esp if we compare it to XRP?

Thanks!

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1 hour ago, WillGetThere said:

3. I know you @lucky are (so as I) pro BCH, the real Bitcoin. Isn't it more or less the same environmental unfriendly beast as BTC, esp if we compare it to XRP?

For the costs of POW it does not matter if blocks are 1Mb or 10Gb. That is why, if we really must burn all that energy, it's better to burn that energy for a collossal 1Gb per minute decentralized transaction database, to which every individual on this planet can afford to write to, than for a 1Mb / 4 transactions per second database that will only be accessible to the super elite.

I can see advantages of such a database. I can't see advantages of a blockchain that is artificially crippled at the base layer. Not just for the ridiculous costs per transaction, but also because it's not sustainable secure. The limited blocksize of BTC will force transactions to upper layers, which will lead to a system of which the total value of transactions per block will exceed the block reward by an ever increasing factor. It then becomes more and more profitable to stealth mine longer chains to rewrite history (massive double spending).

Currently it costs about 5 billion to buy hardware and energy and stealth mine a chain that is 100 blocks longer. These can be empty blocks. Now let's just forget that 5 billion is small change for states or groups of states, or large banks, who may have an incentive to crash Bitcoin. And let's assume that the whole circus of Lighting Network and derivatives is built on BTC, increasing the value of the total network with a factor 100. All that increased value is virtual, and is not represented in the block reward. Just like with our current banking system, the "real money" is just a fraction of the total value that is created out of it. At that point, there is a stronger economic incentive for the stealth mining scenario.

So, that is why I believe artificially crippling the base layer of a PoW system by limiting the blocksize, was a fundamentally wrong decision by Core, for corrupt reasons (Blockstream's Liquid solution), that ultimately will lead to it's collapse. BCH does not have that problem, at least not to that extend, because there is no need to transact off-chain. I'm with Satoshi (and CSW) on this: don't care about the size.

Still, I think XRP will win. You can't beat it's technical features with PoW, and most important: it's not just environmentally friendly, it is also much safer. The main problem people seem to have with XRP is that it makes some people filthy rich. I don't think that is a good reason to burn billions of dollars of energy, forever and ever, just to make a few other people filthy rich, and for a second rate solution to the payments problem.

 

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1 hour ago, lucky said:

Still, I think XRP will win. You can't beat it's technical features with PoW, and most important: it's not just environmentally friendly, it is also much safer.

Fingers crossed..!

Thanks for taking time to express your opinion, @lucky

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On 10/5/2018 at 8:51 AM, automatic said:

large banks will throw their weight around (i.e pressuring smaller partners) in hopes of pushing adoption,

When do large banks NOT throw their weight around? 

Banks are already competitive. They just totally missed the blockchain boat and they're scrambling. And ripple is the perfect solution. 

Do you think large banks are going to suddenly become nimble fintech companies with C++ engineers and the kind of geniuses assembled at ripple? Really? Do you really think banks somehow will become more competitive than they already are? 

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On 10/5/2018 at 4:29 PM, xrpmeplease said:

This Ari Paul guy articulates an issue I've always had with the XRP adoption paradigm, being the whole implicit result of a transfer of wealth to a coin the bulk of which is (at present and for the foreseeable future) controlled by a private party...but I've rationalized this concern through my understanding as to how the whole process is being rolled out (building liquidity from the bottom up, starting with small players/transactions and building), the inflationary nature of the coin and the FOMO power of speculation...ultimately, I think he will be proved wrong because of the inherently disruptive nature of the technology...but definitely food for thought! good stuff!

Legitimate concern - but what irks me a little it's entirely up to Ripple whether or not they choose to divest and eliminate this issue overnight. It's presumably one of the major headwinds that they face for mainstream adoption - why not just do it?

Edited by JA8

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19 hours ago, Dblase said:

I don't see a problem here. Banks use assets to make themselves rich all the banks assets are currency  they don't control any currency on earth. They can't create currency only the governments can. And the government is always the counter party risk. With that said banks are not making the government any richer cause they have literally ALL the control. So all the banks care about is loaning and transferring currency. Don't matter to them who owns it all. They just facilitate custody,(BANK ACCOUNTS) TRANSFERS and LOANS. They could care less what the actual device is that makes them money as long as they can use it to do just that. So again I don't see why this is a problem.

Actually, governments don't create currency. Central banks create currency from thin air, then they loan it to the government and charge interest. When the currency hits the rest of the banking system, it gets further multiplied (up to a factor of 10) via fractional reserve lending.

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1 hour ago, JA8 said:

Actually, governments don't create currency. Central banks create currency from thin air, then they loan it to the government and charge interest. When the currency hits the rest of the banking system, it gets further multiplied (up to a factor of 10) via fractional reserve lending.

I don't think so. The us treasury prints money, and the federal reserve bank controls it. But this bank is the government bank. Completely different from the completely independent commercial banks like wells Fargo ect.

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On 10/5/2018 at 5:59 PM, Sebastian said:

Ari's argument banks will avoid using XRP because they do not want to enrich Ripple is potentially valid.  This is arguably the biggest downside to the centralized ownership of XRP.  I suspect some (but not necessarily all) of the banks, who choose to use publicly traded digital assets, may prefer another one.

“ centralized ownership”of xrp?. Ripple the co is owned by hundreds of shareholders now. Distributing xrp to shareholders can be done when wise. Immediate increased dilution. Xrp ownership distribution is a lot more decentralized than given credit for.

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3 hours ago, radcity79 said:

Banks are already competitive. They just totally missed the blockchain boat and they're scrambling. And ripple is the perfect solution. 

Do you think large banks are going to suddenly become nimble fintech companies with C++ engineers and the kind of geniuses assembled at ripple? Really? Do you really think banks somehow will become more competitive than they already are? 

Sure I do;  you don't need brain trust on staff when you have brain trust on speed dial. 

Suppose I am Jamie Dimon and I notice this small fintech startup beginning to eat into my $7bil annual Treasure revenue.  Hmmm what shall I do...  maybe I'll call my friends and IBM and throw couple of hundred mil their way to see if they can put their Stellar partnership to good use and protect my Treasury revenue.  Maybe I'll throw in extra 100 mil if they are done in six months, and another 100 if they help me roll it out to 80% of my network within 12 months.

See how that works?  These guys have the brains, the means, and the incentive, and should not be underestimated.  They are not blind to the fact that change is on the way and have been adjusting for some time.  Here are some articles that illustrate this fact:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/jp-morgan-is-unleashing-artificial-intelligence-on-treasury-services.html

https://www.jpmorgan.com/country/US/en/detail/1320562088910

...and take a look at the quote from Jamie Dimon himself at the bottom of this article:  https://www.theglobaltreasurer.com/2017/12/29/2017s-most-read-correspondent-banking-still-in-rude-health/

Ripple is off to a good start, but the real fistfight is yet to happen.

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