About the 20 xrp needed for account opening

[MightyCat]

Hi all xrp enthusiasts,

I have a question I couldn't find in discussions about the 20 xrp needed to open an account on the ledger, which are blocked after the account creation.

First let's dream and say all humans on Earth decide to open an account on the ledger. it means 7 billions accounts for 140 billions xrp total (7billions people * 20xrp) which is more than the 100 billions xrp out there.

Now let's go back to reality, when I am writing now, there are 1 347 165 accounts which means 26 943 300 xrp are hold in the ledger forever.

With a growing utilisation it means that more and more xrp will be blocked.

I know there is the possibility to vote to lower the need of xrp blocked on each new account but even with this, if there are 100 times more accounts in the future, it means that about 2 to 3 billions xrp will be hold on the ledger which is about 3% of all xrp, that sounds a lot to me. Is there further thinking in this ?

I mean it seems like the xrp isn't made right now for a global use. If the account opening cost was about 1 xrp it would be more realistic on a global human scale, because it would mean about 7 billions xrp blocked on the ledger dedicated to account opening. Also don't forget some people could want several different accounts.

It's also possible that if in the future xrp costs more, the account opening will become very expensive in fiat money.

These are just some questions I was wondering about because of a possible online wallet business I could make where every users would have their own xrp accounts. Basically a service for simple xrp account creation and managing but not in the way exchange do it, because exchanges actually use 1 to 10 accounts on the ledger and then manage it internally. My purpose was to let people have their own xrp account but I guess such a service would dramatically block a lot of xrp.

Thanks for reading, I hope I was clear.

Regards.

Edited September 24, 2018 by MightyCat

[at3n]

The model you're proposing is how Gatehub does it, basically an online wallet service. They make money by running a gateway service alongside it.

I wouldn't worry about draining the global supply of XRP, it's working out ok so far with all of the other wallet software and services! If you have a business idea then don't let that stop you.

Hopefully by the time adoption is as large as you're speculating, the price will have risen significantly, allowing Ripple/The Community to lower the reserve amount. There are many different opinions on this though. Many seem to like the idea of imposing a high cost to set up a wallet.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, MightyCat said:

Hi all xrp enthusiasts,

I have a question I couldn't find in discussions about the 20 xrp needed to open an account on the ledger, which are blocked after the account creation.

First let's dream and say all humans on Earth decide to open an account on the ledger. it means 7 billions accounts for 140 billions xrp total (7billions people * 20xrp) which is more than the 100 billions xrp out there.

Now let's go back to reality, when I am writing now, there are 1 347 165 accounts which means 26 943 300 xrp are hold in the ledger forever.

With a growing utilisation it means that more and more xrp will be blocked.

I know there is the possibility to vote to lower the need of xrp blocked on each new account but even with this, if there are 100 times more accounts in the future, it means that about 2 to 3 billions xrp will be hold on the ledger which is about 3% of all xrp, that sounds a lot to me. Is there further thinking in this ?

I mean it seems like the xrp isn't made right now for a global use. If the account opening cost was about 1 xrp it would be more realistic on a global human scale, because it would mean about 7 billions xrp blocked on the ledger dedicated to account opening. Also don't forget some people could want several different accounts.

It's also possible that if in the future xrp costs more, the account opening will become very expensive in fiat money.

These are just some questions I was wondering about because of a possible online wallet business I could make where every users would have their own xrp accounts. Basically a service for simple xrp account creation and managing but not in the way exchange do it, because exchanges actually use 1 to 10 accounts on the ledger and then manage it internally. My purpose was to let people have their own xrp account but I guess such a service would dramatically block a lot of xrp.

Thanks for reading, I hope I was clear.

Regards.

Look up Polysign.

You're welcome.

[MightyCat]

Hi at3n,

Thanks for you answer.

Of course the number of accounts should unlikely grow to 7 billions, even 1 billion but let's just imagine in the 5 next years if xrapid is very used and XRP becomes the bridge it wants to be between currencies, it can be interesting for people to have their own account. So 100 times more accounts could happen in the 5 next years.

Now I am not sure about the working of gatehub to be honest. For me each exchange have 1 to 10 xrp accounts max which cost to them 20 xrp to open and then they use their own server connected to their rippled instance to share the xrp between members. I could be wrong.

Maybe someone can enlight me about that but when I check for example the gatehub address :  rhub8VRN55s94qWKDv6jmDy1pUykJzF3wq (gatehub.net) it has about 18 777 067 XRP, when I go to gatehub.net stats there is no informations about xrp volume so I guess that they have one big xrp account holding all xrp and when you create a new account you are just put in their own database but no xrp account is created on the ledger. I am just assuming, I don't use gatehub. One quick way to verify this is to check if the address you have on gatehub.net is the same as the one registered under their name. Also when you need to put a tag it's most likely the same thing, the tag is used as your id in an external database and the website is just an interface between the unique account holding all xrp of members of gatehub and them. After they take 0.20% fee which is pretty expensive when you see that the price is about 0.000012 xrp for a transfert.

I hope they don't do that though, because it would mean the 20xrp taken are just taken by gatehub without any new account created on the ledger.

If someone has a gatehub account could he put his address here so everybody can check this ?

 

Anyway my idea was to dramatically  lower the prices of transferts, they seem too expensive for me (like 2.99$ for a transfert on uphold or transferts fees of 0.2% which mean you pay 2 xrp for a 1000 xrp transferts whereas it really cost 0.000012 xrp to make it, even transfering 1 xrp will cost you 0,002 which is about 200/100 times more than real price, 10 to 20 drops = 0.00001 xrp). I also want to give the opportunity to create a real xrp account that people can use as they want, with some tutorials and plug and play style services with nice design. Easy to use like any banking system. Something which could cost about 0,99$ a month and you can do as much transferts as you want in and out, no limit and no fees. The 0,99$ are just enough to be sure the server can run and expands accordingly with people and new comers. But first I want to be sure I am proposing something new.

 

About the sources, mostly it's from gatehub.net (fees : https://gatehub.net/fees and stats) and XRP stats (https://ledger.exposed/rich-stats) or directly you can ask the ledger on the websocket address https://developers.ripple.com/websocket-api-tool.html#ledger_current or API. Transactions are there to explore the costs : https://xrpcharts.ripple.com/#/transactions/

Thanks for reading.

Regards.

[MightyCat]

31 minutes ago, Mr_McFearson said:

Look up Polysign.

You're welcome.

Hi Mr_McFearson,

I checked Polysign but it looks like they are targetting big companies and institutions for massive adoption. I am targetting people who does not understand at all code, websockets, api, creating servers and address on the ledger and just want a nice and easy interface for a cheap price.

Regards.

[Guest]

Just now, MightyCat said:

Hi Mr_McFearson,

I checked Polysign but it looks like they are targetting big companies and institutions for massive adoption. I am targetting people who does not understand at all code, websockets, api, creating servers and address on the ledger and just want a nice and easy interface for a cheap price.

Regards.

I thought about going more in depth with it, but I cannot remember where I found the previous research that I had. I am pretty sure that Polysign was created as a means to alleviate the need for wallet generation, much like a bank handles things for their customers.

[MightyCat]

1 minute ago, Mr_McFearson said:

I thought about going more in depth with it, but I cannot remember where I found the previous research that I had. I am pretty sure that Polysign was created as a means to alleviate the need for wallet generation, much like a bank handles things for their customers.

Re,

Ok, I only read their linkedIn profile page, I will find more informations, if you have any more sources it will be much appreciated.

Thanks for you answer.

[Guest]

Just now, MightyCat said:

Re,

Ok, I only read their linkedIn profile page, I will find more informations, if you have any more sources it will be much appreciated.

Thanks for you answer.

No problem, I'm doing my digging. I'll post what I find here.

[Guest]

In fact, go to Clubs, and apply to the "Bearableguy123 club" and then go to this post for more information~

 

[MightyCat]

13 minutes ago, Mr_McFearson said:

In fact, go to Clubs, and apply to the "Bearableguy123 club" and then go to this post for more information~

 

Thank you !

I sent a request to the club, I need it to see the content.

Regards.

[at3n]

@MightyCat

Gatehub works in both ways. You can use its "hosted wallet" service to to receive a destination tag and your XRP gets pooled with the other Gatehub users. In this case, they don't require you to deposit the 20 XRP reserve.

But you can also just use it as a wallet, in which case it generates a new address for you, and you are given the secret key, and you need to provide your own 20 XRP reserve (although in some cases they may fund that for you). Gatehub also stores the secret key (encrypted), so that you can use their wallet service to make transactions.  I'd suggest that you get a Gatehub account and play around with it, it sounds quite similar to what you're suggesting.

By the way, the way that Gatehub makes money from the average user is by the transfer fee charged on all transaction using their IOUs (EUR, USD, BTC, ETH... Not XRP). You may be aware that this is different to the XRP Ledger transaction fee. In Gatehub's case, it charges you 0.2% of the value of the IOU transferred (by payment or trade). This is enforced by the XRP Ledger itself, not by Gatehub using your key to reach in and take your funds. They might also charge a percentage on Fiat and Crypto (not XRP) deposits via their gateways - they didn't used to do this, but started in January, I don't know if they stopped it again.

Basically, if you just use Gatehub to send and receive XRP to your private wallet, or to trade non-Gatehub IOUs, they won't make any money off you directly, because you're just using them as a user interface to the XRP Ledger, and they don't charge a subscription fee.

[MightyCat]

1 hour ago, at3n said:

The model you're proposing is how Gatehub does it, basically an online wallet service. They make money by running a gateway service alongside it.

I wouldn't worry about draining the global supply of XRP, it's working out ok so far with all of the other wallet software and services! If you have a business idea then don't let that stop you.

Hopefully by the time adoption is as large as you're speculating, the price will have risen significantly, allowing Ripple/The Community to lower the reserve amount. There are many different opinions on this though. Many seem to like the idea of imposing a high cost to set up a wallet.

Re,

I opened an account on gatehub.net to check it, there is my wallet with an address looking like a xrp ledger one, I tried to look up the address on the ledger and couldn't find it. Maybe I will try to send some xrp later to test it. If it works it means that gatehub is actually doing what I am targetting but with 0.2% fees per transferts. So they kind of own accounts in a way. I couldn't see any tags to enter so maybe you are right, it creates an address on the ledger you to fill to activate like a regular one.

I'll keep you updated.

Regards.

[MightyCat]

4 minutes ago, at3n said:

@MightyCat

Gatehub works in both ways. You can use its "hosted wallet" service to to receive a destination tag and your XRP gets pooled with the other Gatehub users. In this case, they don't require you to deposit the 20 XRP reserve.

But you can also just use it as a wallet, in which case it generates a new address for you, and you are given the secret key, and you need to provide your own 20 XRP reserve (although in some cases they may fund that for you). Gatehub also stores the secret key (encrypted), so that you can use their wallet service to make transactions.  I'd suggest that you get a Gatehub account and play around with it, it sounds quite similar to what you're suggesting.

By the way, the way that Gatehub makes money from the average user is by the transfer fee charged on all transaction using their IOUs (EUR, USD, BTC, ETH... Not XRP). You may be aware that this is different to the XRP Ledger transaction fee. In Gatehub's case, it charges you 0.2% of the value of the IOU transferred (by payment or trade). This is enforced by the XRP Ledger itself, not by Gatehub using your key to reach in and take your funds. They might also charge a percentage on Fiat and Crypto (not XRP) deposits via their gateways - they didn't used to do this, but started in January, I don't know if they stopped it again.

Basically, if you just use Gatehub to send and receive XRP to your private wallet, or to trade non-Gatehub IOUs, they won't make any money off you directly, because you're just using them as a user interface to the XRP Ledger, and they don't charge a subscription fee.

Re,

You answered at the same moment I was posting, so yes it looks like exactly the service I was targetting to make but without fees on my side and a bit of knowledge to make users independant. I will play a bit with gatehub.net to see what they propose but mostly this is the same thing I target to do for cheaper and at first without the possibility to buy assets, just to store them. I will see on my side if it's worth the time to do it.

Thank you for your answers, it was very enlighting.

Regards.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, at3n said:

@MightyCat

Gatehub works in both ways. You can use its "hosted wallet" service to to receive a destination tag and your XRP gets pooled with the other Gatehub users. In this case, they don't require you to deposit the 20 XRP reserve.

But you can also just use it as a wallet, in which case it generates a new address for you, and you are given the secret key, and you need to provide your own 20 XRP reserve (although in some cases they may fund that for you). Gatehub also stores the secret key (encrypted), so that you can use their wallet service to make transactions.  I'd suggest that you get a Gatehub account and play around with it, it sounds quite similar to what you're suggesting.

By the way, the way that Gatehub makes money from the average user is by the transfer fee charged on all transaction using their IOUs (EUR, USD, BTC, ETH... Not XRP). You may be aware that this is different to the XRP Ledger transaction fee. In Gatehub's case, it charges you 0.2% of the value of the IOU transferred (by payment or trade). This is enforced by the XRP Ledger itself, not by Gatehub using your key to reach in and take your funds. They might also charge a percentage on Fiat and Crypto (not XRP) deposits via their gateways - they didn't used to do this, but started in January, I don't know if they stopped it again.

Basically, if you just use Gatehub to send and receive XRP to your private wallet, or to trade non-Gatehub IOUs, they won't make any money off you directly, because you're just using them as a user interface to the XRP Ledger, and they don't charge a subscription fee.

Gatehub has access to SKs, correct? Is it theoretically possible that they could empty wallets and run? Not saying that it would happen, but could it?

[at3n]

22 minutes ago, Mr_McFearson said:

Gatehub has access to SKs, correct? Is it theoretically possible that they could empty wallets and run? Not saying that it would happen, but could it?

They store an encrypted version of your secret key, encrypted with your Gatehub password which they don't store. When you want to create a transaction, the encrypted key is sent to your browser, which uses your password to decrypt it and sign the transaction. So Gatehub servers should have no way of retrieving your key by themselves.

Of course in theory they could capture your password as you enter it and use it maliciously, but at least it's not quite as easy as having direct access to all the keys immediately.