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WhentheBoat_ComesIn

Into the Troll's Lair; a very entertaining discussion with Matt Hamilton ‏ @HammerToe and some Bitcoin trolls

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It is always good to communicate with people that hold a different view to widen your perspective but it was really hard to listen as some points could easily be agreed on.

  • Bitcoin
    • was the first technical solution to the double spend problem without centralised authority by mining (energy wasting proof of work) which lead to a general agreement of the order of all transactions that have been made and therefore on all node balances within one Bitcoin network, of course
    • there are different teams of developers that can adjust the rules and therefore use their own forked networks (Bitcoin Core, Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Private, Bitcoin Diamond, Litecoin, ...)
    • transactions can easily be manipulated by fees and theoretically by mining power (which is likely possible as there are enough rich people and only 4 mining pools that need to cooperate for that)
    • transactions need a minimum of 10 minutes to be included (depends on the overall network usage and fee) and around 1 hour to be finally verified by the network after 5 more blocks have been generated
    • the Lightning Network is not ready and when it is, it is nothing else than a centralised database that needs to put its information into the next Bitcoin block which also needs to be verified - that means that transactions on the Lightning Network still need around one hour to be finally verified by the Bitcoin network and it is therefore useless for instant payment procedures
    • the first Bitcoins were easily obtainable (by easy mining of by the cheap price)
    • if all Bitcoins have been generated/distributed there cannot be made any further transactions as all blocks have been generated already
  • XRP
    • does solve the same double spend problem without centralised authority by consensus on the order of all transactions directly by validators that are chosen by the nodes
    • different teams of developers could adjust the rules and therefore could use their own forked networks (Stellar)
    • transactions could be manipulated by sheisty validators  - but the probability for this is extremely low as validators are chosen on their general consensus alignment (trustworthiness) by the nodes
    • transactions need about 3-8 seconds to be settled (and 1-2 minutes to be finally verified?)
    • RippleNet is already productive
    • XRP were initially obtained by its inventors and a large amount has been given away to Ripple, to charity or has been sold - nowadays Ripple hold the most of it in locked escrow accounts
      • FUD: if Ripple got forced by the government to sell or give away their locked XRP (which will be finally done when the last escrow date is reached) the investors will consider this and the price of XRP will likely tank
    • if all XRP have been distributed by Ripple this does not affect further transactions (in fact, all XRP could already seen as distributed)

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7 hours ago, Gangus said:

IMHO this did not go well. These guys were much more knowledgable on how Blockchain tech works. Someone else should have handled these guys. I definetley would not have posted this recording. Am I missing something?

Yep you are, it was a 5 on 1 gang bang that was uninvited Matt saw it out for the XRP Community, no one could have done better under the joke circumstances, they weren't there to understand they were just being Bitcoiners, scared and lashing out, nothing more nothing less.

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47 minutes ago, tar said:

It is always good to communicate with people that hold a different view to widen your perspective but it was really hard to listen as some points could easily be agreed on.

  • Bitcoin
    • was the first technical solution to the double spend problem without centralised authority by mining (energy wasting proof of work) which lead to a general agreement of the order of all transactions that have been made and therefore on all node balances within one Bitcoin network, of course
    • there are different teams of developers that can adjust the rules and therefore use their own forked networks (Bitcoin Core, Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Private, Bitcoin Diamond, Litecoin, ...)
    • transactions can easily be manipulated by fees and theoretically by mining power (which is likely possible as there are enough rich people and only 4 mining pools that need to cooperate for that)
    • transactions need a minimum of 10 minutes to be included (depends on the overall network usage and fee) and around 1 hour to be finally verified by the network after 5 more blocks have been generated
    • the Lightning Network is not ready and when it is, it is nothing else than a centralised database that needs to put its information into the next Bitcoin block which also needs to be verified - that means that transactions on the Lightning Network still need around one hour to be finally verified by the Bitcoin network and it is therefore useless for instant payment procedures
    • the first Bitcoins were easily obtainable (by easy mining of by the cheap price)
    • if all Bitcoins have been generated/distributed there cannot be made any further transactions as all blocks have been generated already
  • XRP
    • does solve the same double spend problem without centralised authority by consensus on the order of all transactions directly by validators that are chosen by the nodes
    • different teams of developers could adjust the rules and therefore could use their own forked networks (Stellar)
    • transactions could be manipulated by sheisty validators  - but the probability for this is extremely low as validators are chosen on their general consensus alignment (trustworthiness) by the nodes
    • transactions need about 3-8 seconds to be settled (and 1-2 minutes to be finally verified?)
    • RippleNet is already productive
    • XRP were initially obtained by its inventors and a large amount has been given away to Ripple, to charity or has been sold - nowadays Ripple hold the most of it in locked escrow accounts
      • FUD: if Ripple got forced by the government to sell or give away their locked XRP (which will be finally done when the last escrow date is reached) the investors will consider this and the price of XRP will likely tank
    • if all XRP have been distributed by Ripple this does not affect further transactions (in fact, all XRP could already seen as distributed)

Great summation , good work.

i have to say that the BTC guys actually made some intelligent points but it was disguised in their childish  behaviour. I actually really resonate  with their revolutionary fervour and can read the intelligence in their opinions .

 

But I became disheartened when one of them couldn’t  multiply 10x 30bn . 

Edited by XRPHornets

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9 hours ago, Gangus said:

IMHO this did not go well. These guys were much more knowledgable on how Blockchain tech works. Someone else should have handled these guys. I definetley would not have posted this recording. Am I missing something?

What in God’s name are you smoking? And someone else who said Matt didn’t nail it technically. Everything he said was spot on!!!!! These kids just kept shouting GLOBAL CONSENSUS which doesn’t even mean anything!!!  Holy hell this is getting frustrating. Guess you really need a god damn computer science degree to understand this incredible story!!! 

 

Im gonna lose my ?!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hats off to your patience Matt.. Incredible

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The younger (guessing here) did talk all over each other, weren't sound, and blabbered too much. The younger (kids) did sound as if they knew significantly more about just about everything even if they sounded like A$$hats. 

One was vague the younger kids were specific as they say pointy.

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4 hours ago, tar said:

It is always good to communicate with people that hold a different view to widen your perspective but it was really hard to listen as some points could easily be agreed on.

  • Bitcoin
    • was the first technical solution to the double spend problem without centralised authority by mining (energy wasting proof of work) which lead to a general agreement of the order of all transactions that have been made and therefore on all node balances within one Bitcoin network, of course
    • there are different teams of developers that can adjust the rules and therefore use their own forked networks (Bitcoin Core, Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Private, Bitcoin Diamond, Litecoin, ...)
    • transactions can easily be manipulated by fees and theoretically by mining power (which is likely possible as there are enough rich people and only 4 mining pools that need to cooperate for that)
    • transactions need a minimum of 10 minutes to be included (depends on the overall network usage and fee) and around 1 hour to be finally verified by the network after 5 more blocks have been generated
    • the Lightning Network is not ready and when it is, it is nothing else than a centralised database that needs to put its information into the next Bitcoin block which also needs to be verified - that means that transactions on the Lightning Network still need around one hour to be finally verified by the Bitcoin network and it is therefore useless for instant payment procedures
    • the first Bitcoins were easily obtainable (by easy mining of by the cheap price)
    • if all Bitcoins have been generated/distributed there cannot be made any further transactions as all blocks have been generated already
  • XRP
    • does solve the same double spend problem without centralised authority by consensus on the order of all transactions directly by validators that are chosen by the nodes
    • different teams of developers could adjust the rules and therefore could use their own forked networks (Stellar)
    • transactions could be manipulated by sheisty validators  - but the probability for this is extremely low as validators are chosen on their general consensus alignment (trustworthiness) by the nodes
    • transactions need about 3-8 seconds to be settled (and 1-2 minutes to be finally verified?)
    • RippleNet is already productive
    • XRP were initially obtained by its inventors and a large amount has been given away to Ripple, to charity or has been sold - nowadays Ripple hold the most of it in locked escrow accounts
      • FUD: if Ripple got forced by the government to sell or give away their locked XRP (which will be finally done when the last escrow date is reached) the investors will consider this and the price of XRP will likely tank
    • if all XRP have been distributed by Ripple this does not affect further transactions (in fact, all XRP could already seen as distributed)

Like I stated previously, to the FUD point.  The government could just as likely outlaw Bitcoin on all exchanges and prosecute anyone transacting it after the law passed (or was enforced).  Now imagine the US government trying to hijack all XRP validator nodes (for example).  England, Saudi Arabia, Japan, China, and many other countries who have vested interests in XRP, will fight back.  Welcome to WWIII.  That will never happen with the current framework.

Edited by mrhat75

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I wish I was able to smoke something. Don't lose your?. I agree with you and Matt deserves much credit from the XRP community. I didn't mean any disrespect and I think he handled himself well given the situation he was put in. He walked into the lions den and with a bunch of BTC brain washed loyalists. They made some valid points. However, every point they did make was quickly lost due to there lack of maturity and professionalism. These kids are going to self distruct once they realize their BTC replace the dollar screw the government dream blows up in there face. Hats off to Matt though !!!!!

1 hour ago, XRPwinning said:

What in God’s name are you smoking? And someone else who said Matt didn’t nail it technically. Everything he said was spot on!!!!! These kids just kept shouting GLOBAL CONSENSUS which doesn’t even mean anything!!!  Holy hell this is getting frustrating. Guess you really need a god damn computer science degree to understand this incredible story!!! 

 

Im gonna lose my ?!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hats off to your patience Matt.. Incredible

 

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The guy shouting “consensus of the global balances” reallly annoyed me. The whole purpose is to solve the double-spend problem. When that specific problem is solved it leads to a consensus of the balances in each account..

 

but i don’t understand the argument. How did it lead to the point of consensus, bitcoin, and proof of work. They both solve the double spend problem, but xrp does it in a more efficient and “green” way. 

 

They talked about lightning as if it was some sort of heavens gate LOL when it’s not even in production. the xrpledger has been running for years and efficiently been doing what lightning is trying to do now LOL.

I really don’t understand their hypothetical government shutdown convo. The same can be applied to bitcoin 

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3 hours ago, mrhat75 said:

Like I stated previously, to the FUD point.  The government could just as likely outlaw Bitcoin on all exchanges and prosecute anyone transacting it after the law passed (or was enforced).  Now imagine the US government trying to hijack all XRP validator nodes (for example).  England, Saudi Arabia, Japan, China, and many other countries who have vested interests in XRP, will fight back.  Welcome to WWIII.  That will never happen with the current framework.

Generally, any government can demand taxes on official business transactions which are essential for reliable contracts for both contracting parties (rule of law) and therefore for economic growth and innovation. Hereby lies one of the crucial misunderstandings made by the liberal/anarchistic crypto proponents who dream of getting rid of banks and conventional "money".

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Thanks all :) I've not been about in here too much recently so just saw this thread.

Yes, it was a tough call, and yes I did think twice about posting it, as realised it could be easily taken as 'ammunition' by further bitcoin trolls. But so far I've had virtually none of them try to say anything to me about it. And plenty of support from the XRP community.

Yes, I was being snarky at times on there, and there were time a slightly more diplomatic response might have been more productive. But I thought it was going to be a quick 10 minute chat one on one... not an hour and a half 5-on-1.

Yes, the point of the XRP Ledger or Bitcoin blockchain *as a whole* is to come to consensus on the GLOBAL BALANCES (I can't say those two words now without shouting them in my head). But the point I was (not very successfully) trying to make was that the aspect of the process that VALIDATORS get involved in is just to come to consensus on the ordering of the transactions. The idea was to then talk about potential ways that could go wrong. But we didn't get that far, as they were unable to look at the various parts of the problem individually.

-Matt

 

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