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Atomic1221

A detailed, technical Stellar XLM (SCP) vs Ripple XRP (xRPL/RCL) thread

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I posted this in Zerpening 2 thread a week or two back, trying to defend Ripple some more against FUD. Here's some additional information on how Stellar is not a non-profit.

Quote

Stellar isn’t even a non-profit. They missed the final deadline to become a 501(c) by 21 months.

”the IRS allows an organization 27 months from the date of incorporation to file its tax exemption application and have the exemption, once granted, be effective retroactively to the date of incorporation."

 

A user on XRPChat mailed the IRS and asked them for Stellar’s non-profit status and IRS confirmed on 12/04/2017 they are not a non-profit. Below is a timeline of events:

 

Stellar incorporated in Delaware - 3/31/2014 (0 months) Memorandum from law firm - 3/6/2015 (11+ months) 

IRS filing deadline - 6/30/2016 (27 months) 

User’s letter from the IRS - 12/29/2017 (44+ months; 17+ months past deadline)

 

Someone named Arthur Britto is currently suing Stellar for falsely claiming to be a non-profit and taking donations as well. If you don’t like the source of the link below you can find the original documents.

https://www.xrpchat.com/topic/17500-a-stellar-story/

 

The likely reason Stellar never filed the paperwork was because Jed and company make profit when the token rises in value. They’ve continued to take donations even without proper 501(c) paperwork and also continue to use the label of charitable foundation to skirt regulation through loopholes.

 

Call it FUD all you like, it’s true. And Stellar even acknowledged that it was normal for organizations to take the 27 months to file the paperwork and that as soon as they do they’ll post on their website. 21 months later no proof of paperwork from IRS and no proof on the website.

 

Please read all the documents on that link and let me know what you think. I personally don’t like Jed but if Stellar was approved as non-profit (in turn having to abide by non-profit IRS rules) I would actually invest.

 

Edit: Some background of history between Stellar’s Jed and Ripple (Brad). http://observer.com/2015/02/the-race-to-replace-bitcoin/

Original Link on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7x1ocu/ibm_to_bring_stellar_to_central_banks/du5c4xd/?context=2&st=jdm811ou&sh=ec3843b8

Edited by Atomic1221

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Thanks for putting this together.  Most of this makes sense and some of it I wasn't aware of.  I'm curious, in your view what is so great about Stellar's P2P platform and what does Ripple need to do to bridge the gap, if there even is one?  

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On 2/13/2018 at 5:37 PM, aavkk said:

Thanks for putting this together.  Most of this makes sense and some of it I wasn't aware of.  I'm curious, in your view what is so great about Stellar's P2P platform and what does Ripple need to do to bridge the gap, if there even is one?  

The way quorum works on the Stellar Consensus Protocol is absolutely perfect for being used "as-is," immediately for P2P/B2C transactions. You have the businesses that Stellar anoints as trusted members (like Gerrymandering) and then you have a solid system ready to be used for high volume payments. No need to be tried and tested so much (remember Stellar reputation<<Ripple reputation) because the businesses hold control. 

Ripple is doing a top-down approach. Once the banks are on-board, Ripple will transitively be able to trickle down to businesses. That takes more time. Ripple is busy dealing with banks so there's no reason to push the cart before the horse. If the need is truly there, all the tools are available online for someone to compile their own P2P system, public or private. 

I foresee 18-36months until Ripple gets into P2P itself unless someone jumps the gun. Additionally, any P2P/B2C implementation Ripple will do in the future will be greatly complemented with integrated smart contracts. Doing Codius in JavaScript is going to be an Ethereum-killer. But we can't say that aloud or else our ETH friends will get their pitchforks. ETH fans are some of the only people who don't hate on Ripple. 

Edited by Atomic1221
JavaScript not Java

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i'm sure i read something about the Ripple IP once, and i am probably completely wrong or misremembering/miquoting, if so someone please reducate me, but, basically it was something like, for each clone of the ripple network/technology, the founders got a % of the new network tokens...

might be totally off on that or have read some kind of misinfo... anyone from here or ripple confirm/deny?

if so, i wonder why jed really changed the stellar network to this new consensus mechanism ; was it really to "improve" the consensus algo, or actually just to escape some kind of IP related issue with cloning the ripplenet?

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19 hours ago, zerpdigger said:

i'm sure i read something about the Ripple IP once, and i am probably completely wrong or misremembering/miquoting, if so someone please reducate me, but, basically it was something like, for each clone of the ripple network/technology, the founders got a % of the new network tokens...

This is not true. If it was we'd be hearing this FUD every hour, every day

19 hours ago, zerpdigger said:

if so, i wonder why jed really changed the stellar network to this new consensus mechanism ; was it really to "improve" the consensus algo, or actually just to escape some kind of IP related issue with cloning the ripplenet?

What Jed copied was open-source.

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Brilliant work Atomic.  Thanks so much for doing it and sharing it.  I agree with you that some minds are changing,  and that Ripple are starting to be seen in a less jaundiced light.  In some part that is down to what you and others have done to fight the FUD.  Thanks.  :JC_doubleup:

Not wanting to nit pick but for accuracy...   I note in your reply to aavkk that there is still the word Java when it should be JavaScript.  Two different languages and an important distinction.

It's never ceased to amaze me that Jed could be seen as the good guy and Ripple the bad guys....   the crypto world seems to magnify the absurdities of the real world into a bizzaro landscape.  I am grateful that there are sensible and smart hard-working people like you here as well to inject some sense in the place.  :good:

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The only thing about this i like little less then the rest is use of Java Script.

That was the only (and more or less personaly based) flaw i found after getting into XRP, use of Java Script anywhere. I just dont like it based on my XP.

Thank you for the post and for pwnning fudsters everywhere.

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1 hour ago, Oldschool said:

The only thing about this i like little less then the rest is use of Java Script.

That was the only (and more or less personaly based) flaw i found after getting into XRP, use of Java Script anywhere. I just dont like it based on my XP.

Thank you for the post and for pwnning fudsters everywhere.

Yeah I too have a slight disrespect for JavaScript.  Perhaps if it wasn't including the name Java ( a powerful, type-safe, enterprise grade language) in its name I wouldn't have this bias against it.  Or maybe it's just the truly terrible examples that abound in its misuse that make me look at it askance.  Or perhaps the sluggish ill-considered scripts that interfere with every page load...   :)    Ok yep I see it now....  I really am biased against it.   :) 

So yeah I was a bit unsure when I saw Ripple using it.   But really if it's used well it's a tool like any other...  you can make good or bad things out of any language.

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On 13/02/2018 at 10:25 PM, Atomic1221 said:

I posted this on Reddit as rebuttal to when someone was going at me for defending XRP on r/Cryptocurrency. I thought I might actually explain to him why Stellar was inferior technically instead of just a subjective judgement. The only exception where Stellar>Ripple is for P2P usage, but that's it..and only for right now. 

I know a lot of people have been discussing Stellar vs Ripple over here, so I figured I might open up some technical discussion on the topic.

If you have anything to add, please feel free. I've been taking a deep dive on the mathematical aspect of tokens. CAP theorem, game theory, Sybil attacks, timestamp manipulation, scalability etc. I  don't believe all that stuff should be reserved for the programmers to know, so I'll probably keep adding to this thread so we can have some insights into the DNA of all the different tokens out there. 

 

Original Thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7x750o/without_stellar_banks_wouldnt_think_about_ripple/du6ucbk/?context=3&st=jdm2435h&sh=c53e680a

 

P.S I've been taking arms against the FUD on Ripple XRP over in r/cryptocurrency. You know what? The tides are turning and the guys who call XRP "shitcoin" are not getting 50 upvotes anymore; now they're getting downvoted. I've managed to open some minds as well; and had people admit that they were mistaken in their negative views of XRP. 

Thanks for all the Likes & Thanks! It's nice to have made my online home here with you guys. XRPChat is truly one of the best online communities out there :). It's my pleasure to put all this together for you guys. 

:hi::hi::hi:

 

=====Edits=====

Fixed.

 

Nice work!

XRP is the only coin that works acceptably and reliably.

BTC - too slow, too expensive to send. It’s like an old gas guzzling Chevy.

ETH - Great tech, but it’s overcrowded with Tokens. Slow transfers and failed transactions due to running out of Gas - basically you have no idea how much it will cost to send ETH. It’s like a dodgy taxi driver, charging you money, but not taking you to your destination.

 

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16 hours ago, Tinyaccount said:

Yeah I too have a slight disrespect for JavaScript.  Perhaps if it wasn't including the name Java ( a powerful, type-safe, enterprise grade language) in its name I wouldn't have this bias against it.  Or maybe it's just the truly terrible examples that abound in its misuse that make me look at it askance.  Or perhaps the sluggish ill-considered scripts that interfere with every page load...   :)    Ok yep I see it now....  I really am biased against it.   :) 

So yeah I was a bit unsure when I saw Ripple using it.   But really if it's used well it's a tool like any other...  you can make good or bad things out of any language.

Exactly my thoughts , in all domains i look after on one of my jobs only one thing is constant --- java caused troubleshooting, but i also know that when used properly its a tool like any other and using it will help the www accept xrp faster and in bigger scale so that is a plus . i must admit .

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2 hours ago, hammertoe said:

Some of the Stellar supporters really do need their heads checked. Here is a convo I tried to have on Twitter the other day:

-Matt

 

 

 

I also dont understand who owns the other 95% percent? Seems like he couldnt answer you

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~Edit: I will be making a diagram at some point in the future so it can be more easily digested. 

A quick update. Here's a slightly more consensus oriented evaluation of Ripple's FBA and Stellar's SCP I wrote in a different thread (source link below)

13 hours ago, PunishmentOfLuxury said:

There's room for debate about whether or not the XRPL is permissioned (see comments):

 

Both Ripple and Stellar are permissioned systems but there are significant differences between them. Although they both use a form of FBA, Federated Byzantine Agreement, their implementation is different.

Quote

Federated Byzantine Agreement (FBA) is a model for consensus using nodes, quorum slices and quorums. Quorum slices are sets of nodes used for reaching an agreement. An agreement that can never change in the future is a quorum.

https://itnext.io/the-stellar-consensus-protocol-decentralization-explained-338b374d0d72

The real differentiator between Ripple and Stellar is who are members of your quorum slice during the FBA consensus. 

Ripple has a democratized system of FBA. Although at the beginning, the only trusted validator nodes were run by Ripple, Ripple did two things to decentralize it’s control.

First: Ripple is adding two non-Ripple trusted validator nodes for each Ripple node it’s decomissioned until, by the end of 2018, no single entity controls more than 50% of all trusted validators. 

Second: Ripple currently allows you to edit your UNL list. Basically this means you can choose which trusted validators are part of your quorum slice to reach a FBA. You can also opt-in to specific validators with Ripple in their Federate Byzantine Agreement consensus protocol. So if I want Joe’s trusted validator to also be part of my quorum slice I can elect to do so.

With Stellar, the nodes are already decentralized but it has fixed permissions, and this will never change with Stellar. Stellar already had issues with an accidental hard fork a couple years ago (LOL)! Thus, in order to satisfy purists who wanted decentralization on paper (Jed is a good marketer, I’ll give him that) while also maintaining 100% Agreement to prevent hard forks (AP in CAP) , Stellar decided to require it’s own appointed quorum members in every quorum slice. Stellar’s custom FBA is called SCP: Stellar Consensus Protocol.

The problem with SCP is if Stellar went out of business tomorrow, then the Stellar-anointed, requisite quorum members would remain the same fix # while the network grew; increasing these special quorum member’s proportional control on the network.

The only thing left for Ripple to do to truly be decentralized is as follows:

After Ripple relinquishes control of trusted validators, it needs to add a clearly defined path to promotion for normal validator nodes to become trusted validators and it needs to be done on the network. Once that happens I believe we will be the first truly decentralized permissioned network. 

 

Edited by Atomic1221

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