Popular Post Atomic1221 Posted February 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) I posted this on Reddit as rebuttal to when someone was going at me for defending XRP on r/Cryptocurrency. I thought I might actually explain to him why Stellar was inferior technically instead of just a subjective judgement. The only exception where Stellar>Ripple is for P2P usage, but that's it..and only for right now. I know a lot of people have been discussing Stellar vs Ripple over here, so I figured I might open up some technical discussion on the topic. If you have anything to add, please feel free. I've been taking a deep dive on the mathematical aspect of tokens. CAP theorem, game theory, Sybil attacks, timestamp manipulation, scalability etc. I don't believe all that stuff should be reserved for the programmers to know, so I'll probably keep adding to this thread so we can have some insights into the DNA of all the different tokens out there. Quote [Redditor claimed Stellar wasn't claiming to be a nonprofit anymore] https://www.stellar.org/about/mandate/ Right there on their website buddy. They claim to be “non-profit” right now. Don’t be blind to what’s literally two clicks from the homepage. Oh and Stellar is still accepting donations: https://www.stellar.org/cn/donate/ Additionally, Stellar still has a lawsuit against it for misrepresenting as a non-profit from Arthur Britto. Check your facts first. [Redditor asked me to explain how Ripple>Stellar; else I was saying FUD] Since you asked: Ripple has ILP which is going to change all our lives online; whether you're an XRP, XLM, BTC, or "insert-coin-here" fanboy or just an online shopper wanting to buy things online. Additionally they’re working on smart contracts on their Codius project which will only require JavaScript no Solidarity. Next, Stellar protocol isn’t very advanced. No escrow functions. No payment channels. Nothing can be done off-chain so future speed upgrades aren’t possible; limiting scope of the project. xRPL has implemented Check Cash functions so banks can clear regulatory hurdles and insure payments are done using KYC/AML compliance. Stellar is a very good P2P platform. That’s about it. They make it seem it’s going to take over Ripple but it’s not. Why? It’s shady non-profit incorporation; it’s fewer employees ; it’s run by Jed who knew about 80,000 stolen BTC and kept it hidden before he sold Mt.Gox and has a history for screwing people over. Additionally the tech is “as-is” without much room to grow. And Ripple is far far ahead of Stellar in getting Banks in-board. The banks aren't going to switch again unless Stellar is 10x better in some aspect. And that whole “Stellar is more decentralized” argument is total BS. Stellar decided to decentralize it’s validated nodes (doesn’t control them like Ripple) but consolidated (read: centralized) voting rights to prevent forks. Ripple simply decided to manage this risk on the front end by centralizing their validator nodes but at the very least, they can decentralize those now that they’re established. That’s unlike Stellar, who will now never be able to decentralize voting because its critical to preventing hard forks in SCP. Stellar used to closely based on a hard fork. Due to Stellar mis-implementing consensus protocols, Stellar suffered an accidental hard fork (WHAT!!? that's terrible lol) and had to rewrite its code. The newer consensus algorithm is called SCP and is based on Ripple's FBA. In order to prevent hard forks, SCP changed it's consensus to a Federated Byzantine agreement (FBA). FBA is basically where individual nodes decide which other nodes become part of its quorum (requisite number of nodes needed for agreement). For example, if a bank is working with a credit union on Ripple network, those two entities may edit their list of quorum members and always require agreement between each other for each transaction. SCP is similar to FBA but Stellar controls the list of reputable members. Why? Because Stellar wanted to decentralize all their nodes (sounds good for marketing, I'll give Stellar that) but they couldn't do both: editable (=decentralized) FBA-style quorum lists AND (immediate) decentralization of nodes, whilst remaining protected against hard forks. So Stellar chose the more marketable path and kept quorum voting process centralized while having immediate decentralization of nodes. To protect against hard forks, SCP will never allow nodes to edit the list of their quorum slice. This is indirect centralization that will never change. Every "quorum slice" on SCP will always have Stellar-defined nodes forced into their group. Gerrymandering at its finest. Ripple pursued the reverse strategy. Ripple chose the long-term path of immediately editable FBA quorum lists (=decentralized) and gradual decentralization of trusted validator nodes. Ripple allowed any node to edit their list of FBA members (called UNL) that were in the node's "quorum slice." Clients like Banks, FIs, any major corporation will almost all have their own nodes so this is important, particularly for payment channels. To prevent against hard forks, Ripple decided to have trusted validator nodes that were centralized at first; but is now slowly relinquishing control by adding non-Ripple controlled trusted validator nodes. Currently Ripple has 72 trusted validator nodes. Being able to change your UNL list ensures that if Ripple went out of business tomorrow, we could continue using RCL. That is true decentralization. Validator nodes starting out centralized isn't fun for Ripple's PR but in the long run, the technology > marketing/hype. I applaud Ripple for this difficult decision. I believe Stellar chose the opposite path to differentiate from Ripple in the loudest way possible with least effort. Jed is indeed a marketing genius, I'll give him that. To recap: Stella (always) ==Centralized control of reputable FBA member list + Decentralized validators. This equilibrium can never be fully decentralized. Sounds nice to say "we have decentralized nodes" but if there's gerrymandering on quorum slices then voting results are truly dictated by Stellar. If stellar went out of business, the network would grow but the # of reputable FBA members would stay the same, increasing the %age control each one has. Ripple (now) ==Decentralized ability to select your UNL (ie "reputable FBA member list). Currently: centralized trusted validators (72)+Decentralized non-trusted validators (251; anyone can run one). Ripple is adding 2 third-party trusted validators for every 1 Ripple-controlled trusted validator decommissioned until no entity operates a majority of recommended trusted nodes on the XRP Ledger. Once this happens you'll have: Ripple (future) ==Decentralized UNL; Trusted validators will be decentralized and non-trusted validators will remain open for anyone to set-up and prove stability/reliability to be given "trusted" status. This is full back-end decentralization. You can still argue centralization/decentralization from point of token control, but I will refrain from doing so in detail as it's outside the scope of the technical aspects. However it is important to keep in mind that nobody at Ripple can sell more than 0.1% of daily market volume on open markets and that Ripple's ownership is stake is entirely in escrow. Jed and Stellar founders own a large percentage (Jed ~6%) of Stellar tokens and directly profit from token inflation and XLM token price appreciate, which runs counter to the notion of being "non-profit" and fear of rejection because of this is likely a major reason why Stellar never filed its 501(c) paperwork. Remember, Jed is a marketing evil genius. Don’t get me wrong here. Stellar will have success. And I would invest. If Jed wasn’t around and didnt have so much XLM out of escrow that he could dump at any time he has a baby fit (like he's attempted to in the past) Those are all facts. Original Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7x750o/without_stellar_banks_wouldnt_think_about_ripple/du6ucbk/?context=3&st=jdm2435h&sh=c53e680a P.S I've been taking arms against the FUD on Ripple XRP over in r/cryptocurrency. You know what? The tides are turning and the guys who call XRP "shitcoin" are not getting 50 upvotes anymore; now they're getting downvoted. I've managed to open some minds as well; and had people admit that they were mistaken in their negative views of XRP. Thanks for all the Likes & Thanks! It's nice to have made my online home here with you guys. XRPChat is truly one of the best online communities out there . It's my pleasure to put all this together for you guys. =====Edits===== 19 minutes ago, Gepster said: I read Java twice now in this thread. It's called Java Script! Fixed. Edited February 13, 2018 by Atomic1221 spelling & additions (javascript not java) PunishmentOfLuxury, jpgt1, Zerp_Legend and 44 others 16 30 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic1221 Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) I posted this in Zerpening 2 thread a week or two back, trying to defend Ripple some more against FUD. Here's some additional information on how Stellar is not a non-profit. Quote Stellar isn’t even a non-profit. They missed the final deadline to become a 501(c) by 21 months. ”the IRS allows an organization 27 months from the date of incorporation to file its tax exemption application and have the exemption, once granted, be effective retroactively to the date of incorporation." A user on XRPChat mailed the IRS and asked them for Stellar’s non-profit status and IRS confirmed on 12/04/2017 they are not a non-profit. Below is a timeline of events: Stellar incorporated in Delaware - 3/31/2014 (0 months) Memorandum from law firm - 3/6/2015 (11+ months) IRS filing deadline - 6/30/2016 (27 months) User’s letter from the IRS - 12/29/2017 (44+ months; 17+ months past deadline) Someone named Arthur Britto is currently suing Stellar for falsely claiming to be a non-profit and taking donations as well. If you don’t like the source of the link below you can find the original documents. https://www.xrpchat.com/topic/17500-a-stellar-story/ The likely reason Stellar never filed the paperwork was because Jed and company make profit when the token rises in value. They’ve continued to take donations even without proper 501(c) paperwork and also continue to use the label of charitable foundation to skirt regulation through loopholes. Call it FUD all you like, it’s true. And Stellar even acknowledged that it was normal for organizations to take the 27 months to file the paperwork and that as soon as they do they’ll post on their website. 21 months later no proof of paperwork from IRS and no proof on the website. Please read all the documents on that link and let me know what you think. I personally don’t like Jed but if Stellar was approved as non-profit (in turn having to abide by non-profit IRS rules) I would actually invest. Edit: Some background of history between Stellar’s Jed and Ripple (Brad). http://observer.com/2015/02/the-race-to-replace-bitcoin/ Original Link on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7x1ocu/ibm_to_bring_stellar_to_central_banks/du5c4xd/?context=2&st=jdm811ou&sh=ec3843b8 Edited February 13, 2018 by Atomic1221 King34Maine, NoFoMoJoe, Hodlezerper and 3 others 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aavkk Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Thanks for putting this together. Most of this makes sense and some of it I wasn't aware of. I'm curious, in your view what is so great about Stellar's P2P platform and what does Ripple need to do to bridge the gap, if there even is one? Atomic1221 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic1221 Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) On 2/13/2018 at 5:37 PM, aavkk said: Thanks for putting this together. Most of this makes sense and some of it I wasn't aware of. I'm curious, in your view what is so great about Stellar's P2P platform and what does Ripple need to do to bridge the gap, if there even is one? The way quorum works on the Stellar Consensus Protocol is absolutely perfect for being used "as-is," immediately for P2P/B2C transactions. You have the businesses that Stellar anoints as trusted members (like Gerrymandering) and then you have a solid system ready to be used for high volume payments. No need to be tried and tested so much (remember Stellar reputation<<Ripple reputation) because the businesses hold control. Ripple is doing a top-down approach. Once the banks are on-board, Ripple will transitively be able to trickle down to businesses. That takes more time. Ripple is busy dealing with banks so there's no reason to push the cart before the horse. If the need is truly there, all the tools are available online for someone to compile their own P2P system, public or private. I foresee 18-36months until Ripple gets into P2P itself unless someone jumps the gun. Additionally, any P2P/B2C implementation Ripple will do in the future will be greatly complemented with integrated smart contracts. Doing Codius in JavaScript is going to be an Ethereum-killer. But we can't say that aloud or else our ETH friends will get their pitchforks. ETH fans are some of the only people who don't hate on Ripple. Edited February 14, 2018 by Atomic1221 JavaScript not Java JTxrPP, FUDFatigue, emsemporium and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gepster Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) I read Java twice now in this thread. It's called Java Script! Edit: Not to ***** just a small correction. Good stuff here. Edited February 14, 2018 by Gepster Atomic1221 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 i'm sure i read something about the Ripple IP once, and i am probably completely wrong or misremembering/miquoting, if so someone please reducate me, but, basically it was something like, for each clone of the ripple network/technology, the founders got a % of the new network tokens... might be totally off on that or have read some kind of misinfo... anyone from here or ripple confirm/deny? if so, i wonder why jed really changed the stellar network to this new consensus mechanism ; was it really to "improve" the consensus algo, or actually just to escape some kind of IP related issue with cloning the ripplenet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic1221 Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 19 hours ago, zerpdigger said: i'm sure i read something about the Ripple IP once, and i am probably completely wrong or misremembering/miquoting, if so someone please reducate me, but, basically it was something like, for each clone of the ripple network/technology, the founders got a % of the new network tokens... This is not true. If it was we'd be hearing this FUD every hour, every day 19 hours ago, zerpdigger said: if so, i wonder why jed really changed the stellar network to this new consensus mechanism ; was it really to "improve" the consensus algo, or actually just to escape some kind of IP related issue with cloning the ripplenet? What Jed copied was open-source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 Brilliant work Atomic. Thanks so much for doing it and sharing it. I agree with you that some minds are changing, and that Ripple are starting to be seen in a less jaundiced light. In some part that is down to what you and others have done to fight the FUD. Thanks. Not wanting to nit pick but for accuracy... I note in your reply to aavkk that there is still the word Java when it should be JavaScript. Two different languages and an important distinction. It's never ceased to amaze me that Jed could be seen as the good guy and Ripple the bad guys.... the crypto world seems to magnify the absurdities of the real world into a bizzaro landscape. I am grateful that there are sensible and smart hard-working people like you here as well to inject some sense in the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldschool Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 The only thing about this i like little less then the rest is use of Java Script. That was the only (and more or less personaly based) flaw i found after getting into XRP, use of Java Script anywhere. I just dont like it based on my XP. Thank you for the post and for pwnning fudsters everywhere. Atomic1221 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Oldschool said: The only thing about this i like little less then the rest is use of Java Script. That was the only (and more or less personaly based) flaw i found after getting into XRP, use of Java Script anywhere. I just dont like it based on my XP. Thank you for the post and for pwnning fudsters everywhere. Yeah I too have a slight disrespect for JavaScript. Perhaps if it wasn't including the name Java ( a powerful, type-safe, enterprise grade language) in its name I wouldn't have this bias against it. Or maybe it's just the truly terrible examples that abound in its misuse that make me look at it askance. Or perhaps the sluggish ill-considered scripts that interfere with every page load... Ok yep I see it now.... I really am biased against it. So yeah I was a bit unsure when I saw Ripple using it. But really if it's used well it's a tool like any other... you can make good or bad things out of any language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail_Liebenstein Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 On 13/02/2018 at 10:25 PM, Atomic1221 said: I posted this on Reddit as rebuttal to when someone was going at me for defending XRP on r/Cryptocurrency. I thought I might actually explain to him why Stellar was inferior technically instead of just a subjective judgement. The only exception where Stellar>Ripple is for P2P usage, but that's it..and only for right now. I know a lot of people have been discussing Stellar vs Ripple over here, so I figured I might open up some technical discussion on the topic. If you have anything to add, please feel free. I've been taking a deep dive on the mathematical aspect of tokens. CAP theorem, game theory, Sybil attacks, timestamp manipulation, scalability etc. I don't believe all that stuff should be reserved for the programmers to know, so I'll probably keep adding to this thread so we can have some insights into the DNA of all the different tokens out there. Original Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7x750o/without_stellar_banks_wouldnt_think_about_ripple/du6ucbk/?context=3&st=jdm2435h&sh=c53e680a P.S I've been taking arms against the FUD on Ripple XRP over in r/cryptocurrency. You know what? The tides are turning and the guys who call XRP "shitcoin" are not getting 50 upvotes anymore; now they're getting downvoted. I've managed to open some minds as well; and had people admit that they were mistaken in their negative views of XRP. Thanks for all the Likes & Thanks! It's nice to have made my online home here with you guys. XRPChat is truly one of the best online communities out there . It's my pleasure to put all this together for you guys. =====Edits===== Fixed. Nice work! XRP is the only coin that works acceptably and reliably. BTC - too slow, too expensive to send. It’s like an old gas guzzling Chevy. ETH - Great tech, but it’s overcrowded with Tokens. Slow transfers and failed transactions due to running out of Gas - basically you have no idea how much it will cost to send ETH. It’s like a dodgy taxi driver, charging you money, but not taking you to your destination. Atomic1221 and ScottBranson 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertoe Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Some of the Stellar supporters really do need their heads checked. Here is a convo I tried to have on Twitter the other day: -Matt Zerp_Legend, Phintech, jpgt1 and 3 others 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldschool Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 16 hours ago, Tinyaccount said: Yeah I too have a slight disrespect for JavaScript. Perhaps if it wasn't including the name Java ( a powerful, type-safe, enterprise grade language) in its name I wouldn't have this bias against it. Or maybe it's just the truly terrible examples that abound in its misuse that make me look at it askance. Or perhaps the sluggish ill-considered scripts that interfere with every page load... Ok yep I see it now.... I really am biased against it. So yeah I was a bit unsure when I saw Ripple using it. But really if it's used well it's a tool like any other... you can make good or bad things out of any language. Exactly my thoughts , in all domains i look after on one of my jobs only one thing is constant --- java caused troubleshooting, but i also know that when used properly its a tool like any other and using it will help the www accept xrp faster and in bigger scale so that is a plus . i must admit . Atomic1221 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerp_Legend Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 2 hours ago, hammertoe said: Some of the Stellar supporters really do need their heads checked. Here is a convo I tried to have on Twitter the other day: -Matt I also dont understand who owns the other 95% percent? Seems like he couldnt answer you Atomic1221 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic1221 Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) ~Edit: I will be making a diagram at some point in the future so it can be more easily digested. A quick update. Here's a slightly more consensus oriented evaluation of Ripple's FBA and Stellar's SCP I wrote in a different thread (source link below) 13 hours ago, PunishmentOfLuxury said: There's room for debate about whether or not the XRPL is permissioned (see comments): Both Ripple and Stellar are permissioned systems but there are significant differences between them. Although they both use a form of FBA, Federated Byzantine Agreement, their implementation is different. Quote Federated Byzantine Agreement (FBA) is a model for consensus using nodes, quorum slices and quorums. Quorum slices are sets of nodes used for reaching an agreement. An agreement that can never change in the future is a quorum. https://itnext.io/the-stellar-consensus-protocol-decentralization-explained-338b374d0d72 The real differentiator between Ripple and Stellar is who are members of your quorum slice during the FBA consensus. Ripple has a democratized system of FBA. Although at the beginning, the only trusted validator nodes were run by Ripple, Ripple did two things to decentralize it’s control. First: Ripple is adding two non-Ripple trusted validator nodes for each Ripple node it’s decomissioned until, by the end of 2018, no single entity controls more than 50% of all trusted validators. Second: Ripple currently allows you to edit your UNL list. Basically this means you can choose which trusted validators are part of your quorum slice to reach a FBA. You can also opt-in to specific validators with Ripple in their Federate Byzantine Agreement consensus protocol. So if I want Joe’s trusted validator to also be part of my quorum slice I can elect to do so. With Stellar, the nodes are already decentralized but it has fixed permissions, and this will never change with Stellar. Stellar already had issues with an accidental hard fork a couple years ago (LOL)! Thus, in order to satisfy purists who wanted decentralization on paper (Jed is a good marketer, I’ll give him that) while also maintaining 100% Agreement to prevent hard forks (AP in CAP) , Stellar decided to require it’s own appointed quorum members in every quorum slice. Stellar’s custom FBA is called SCP: Stellar Consensus Protocol. The problem with SCP is if Stellar went out of business tomorrow, then the Stellar-anointed, requisite quorum members would remain the same fix # while the network grew; increasing these special quorum member’s proportional control on the network. The only thing left for Ripple to do to truly be decentralized is as follows: After Ripple relinquishes control of trusted validators, it needs to add a clearly defined path to promotion for normal validator nodes to become trusted validators and it needs to be done on the network. Once that happens I believe we will be the first truly decentralized permissioned network. Edited February 15, 2018 by Atomic1221 Mikhail_Liebenstein 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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