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Twarden

Permissioned Ledgers and Accounting for Personal Credit/Responsibility

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On 5/17/2016 at 11:11 AM, Twarden said:
On 5/17/2016 at 7:50 AM, Hodor said:

Off-topic, but kind of similar:  There's a new kind of insurance popping up that is based on small social-based groups of people.  (by social-based I mean currently it's religious-based). 

These health insurance groups can offer premiums lower than market based on factors that are included on an application.  I'm thinking that there is a use case in there somewhere for a blockchain / contract solution, but I haven't really fleshed it out yet. 

I think the insurance market in general could benefit from blockchain solutions and standardization that is provided by a protocol. 

@KarmaCoverage I gave you a ton of technical writing for absolutely nothing last Summer. Pray tell, have you got a prototype working yet??

I also just have to ask is anyone really pissed that Peercover goes *poof*, datz goes crazy suddenly, then peercover.co.nz pops up out of nowhere?  Freequant was nice enough to point out that datz was right regarding MIT on the official forum..an now Larsen is collaborating with them on a course..  More than slightly suspicious, yes? I know all of you hate me because I wasn't burned by him but give him credit for at least attempting to do great things for you (do you all think I work in this field because I am solely doing it for myself?).  Then again, I could be wrong an protecting a true sociopath, we will perhaps never truly know the absolute truth.

Hey @Twarden

My situation is similar to yours in many ways. While things have moved ever so slightly  forward, we are not off the ground yet. I must thank @Haydentiff for connecting me with some good people. Those conversations are on going, but not concluded. Should they conclude favorably KarmaCoverage will be off and running.

In the mean time, what @Hodor is referring to is P2P insurance & Lemonade. They have not yet publicly said anything about using a Distributed Ledger. Although they did hire the exact behavioral economist who's work I often site in my research. 

I have also been contacted by a fortune 500 company strategic leaders regarding KarmaCoverage and Distributed Ledgers as applied to Insurance. I will say it again, I believe that Risk is the "Killer App" for distributed ledgers. 

Regarding PeerCover, I have personally spoken with both Datz pre-you-know, and Chris at Peercover NZ (as well as other P2P insurance start ups). 

I must admit that the irony of PeerCover & PeerCover NZ had me guessing that there was a connection. This was also ironically about the same time as CoinEx NZ stopped communicating with me, although that was all tied up with the Jed affair. I was on the phone with Sean the night Jed made that  $1M transaction, and warned him that I didn't think engaging with Jed was going to serve him well. It didnt.

All that said, I am confident that PeerCover NZ has nothing to do with Datz or Coinex. Chris has an actuarial background, and comes at this P2P insurance issue from the Insurance angle, not the techy / distributed ledger side. Many of the P2P insurance start ups are experiencing the same problem, which I had solved a few years ago, in part because of using Ripple.

Twarden, I am sensing some frustration in your post, and I assure that I share some of that frustration. I have reached out to the "seed fund" guys that Ripple Labs had set up a few years back, they only wanted to look at $25k investments. I have also reached out the the Larson charity because for 2 reasons. 1. KarmaCoverage is intended to be a global service, serving not only the 1st but also the 3rd world. 2. KarmaCoverage could provide the liquidity that the Ripple main net is lacking.... Result, No response. I even reached out to RL for a potential job as a financial engineer, who understands the Ripple network, No response.

This is not my first time working on the financial engineering for a few years to improve a big multi-billion market, only to watch some guys on the "in club"  in SF/CA get funding to take the project on (Nextdoor, REvestor, SmartZip). P2P insurance with Lemonade, is starting to look like just another round of, I do all the initial work, then watch others get funding to execute on it.

It is frustrating, but keep your head up, we are still in the beginning of what will be a long game. You are on my list of people who I will contact if/when I have the resources to actually start getting things done.

Cheers, to some Good Karma

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@KarmaCoverage Yeah, we are in the same boat.  If datz was right about anything, it was that Ripple (Labs) should be focusing on Gateway growth (financial, product, services, and insurance, etc) by providing grants to companies which then pass on XRP and/or issuances to beta testers of their apps.  If I had not explained in private to a former member of RL that I am a rare exception within the community as do not hold job, cannot obtain a typical job, and have lived on social assistance plus my own entrepreneurial skills to support myself which led to a small donation for the open source project I began to create.  First, I wanted to have some financial oversight, so I had emailed my main contacts at RL and asked them to confirm invitations to a team on GitHub to sign off on completed Bountysource bounties when the commits have been made to the repo.  Both of my contacts asked that they please be released from this duty and simply stated "the funds are yours to do whatever you want with."  It seems like for a time Ripple (Labs) was all about attempting to build their network and continue to decentralize their software's ecosystem with at least some levels of involvement in community projects.  I strongly believe that due to the internal shift of direction at Ripple to worry less about Gateways an creating an environment for them to grow successfully an instead focus on serving Financial Institutions was a much poorer choice instead of focusing on Merchant Solutions. RL could have supported the creation of software to support P&S Gateways with a focus on ease of access to information such as calculating figures like the Cost of Goods sold an so forth.  If Ripple were to announce tomorrow that they are going to create accessible insurance products, create gateways for XRP/issuances to be exchanged for fuel/groceries, and create mobile solutions for peer-to-peer settlement then the whole chick and egg liquidity problem solves itself as more traders enter the market by being enticed by the growth of new users who are taking advantage of existing liquidity by only using the Ripple network for payments.

tldr; Ripple is going to FIs to pledge its fealty which is just damn depressing.  Ripple should instead have a story such as Walmart's where as Walmart struggled in their begging years but as they developed into the giants they are now in the retail sector so much so that you have to go to Walmart as a god damn vassal to do business or take a loss. This analogy but replace Walmart and Manufacturers/Wholesalers with Ripple going for Manufacturers/Wholesalers IGNORING the SWIFT/Debit/Interac Network by replacing it with a mobile/web app to support these changes so that one day the Banks have no other option but to come scrambling in on hands an feet to Ripple one day to beg for partnership.

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@karlos how about incentives for posts and using the marketplace with a social credit?  What about issuing an IOU that is tied to a certain amount of XRP that the community can agree upon by consensus voluntarily?  How about only in certain boards such as General,  Technical Discussions, and Altcoins/Fintech provide this coin?  IPB has many plugins to support this functionality and I can assist with integrating some automation for settlement to/from your forum account to the RCL.

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1 hour ago, Twarden said:

@KarmaCoverage Yeah, we are in the same boat.  If datz was right about anything, it was that Ripple (Labs) should be focusing on Gateway growth (financial, product, services, and insurance, etc) by providing grants to companies which then pass on XRP and/or issuances to beta testers of their apps.  If I had not explained in private to a former member of RL that I am a rare exception within the community as do not hold job, cannot obtain a typical job, and have lived on social assistance plus my own entrepreneurial skills to support myself which led to a small donation for the open source project I began to create.  First, I wanted to have some financial oversight, so I had emailed my main contacts at RL and asked them to confirm invitations to a team on GitHub to sign off on completed Bountysource bounties when the commits have been made to the repo.  Both of my contacts asked that they please be released from this duty and simply stated "the funds are yours to do whatever you want with."  It seems like for a time Ripple (Labs) was all about attempting to build their network and continue to decentralize their software's ecosystem with at least some levels of involvement in community projects.  I strongly believe that due to the internal shift of direction at Ripple to worry less about Gateways an creating an environment for them to grow successfully an instead focus on serving Financial Institutions was a much poorer choice instead of focusing on Merchant Solutions. RL could have supported the creation of software to support P&S Gateways with a focus on ease of access to information such as calculating figures like the Cost of Goods sold an so forth.  If Ripple were to announce tomorrow that they are going to create accessible insurance products, create gateways for XRP/issuances to be exchanged for fuel/groceries, and create mobile solutions for peer-to-peer settlement then the whole chick and egg liquidity problem solves itself as more traders enter the market by being enticed by the growth of new users who are taking advantage of existing liquidity by only using the Ripple network for payments.

tldr; Ripple is going to FIs to pledge its fealty which is just damn depressing.  Ripple should instead have a story such as Walmart's where as Walmart struggled in their begging years but as they developed into the giants they are now in the retail sector so much so that you have to go to Walmart as a god damn vassal to do business or take a loss. This analogy but replace Walmart and Manufacturers/Wholesalers with Ripple going for Manufacturers/Wholesalers IGNORING the SWIFT/Debit/Interac Network by replacing it with a mobile/web app to support these changes so that one day the Banks have no other option but to come scrambling in on hands an feet to Ripple one day to beg for partnership.

I can't even make sense of the (too long, but did read) tldr.

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49 minutes ago, lucky said:

I can't even make sense of the (too long, but did read) tldr.

To clarify this point further, I recall watching a documentary which I could not recall for reference which explained the growth of Walmart into the state of the empire it is.  In the shoes of a manufacturer or wholesaler it is commercial suicide to not attempt to seek an agreement with Walmart an act as its vassal as Walmart is now King in that sector.  Ripple must force the issue of Banks and Financial Institutions coming to them for integration by creating an environment which allows for Ripple Gateways, Products, and Services to be sold within our existing supply chain's infrastructure while at the same time enabling the creations of merchant services and peer to peer settlement applications built for access via mobile and web platforms.

Edited by Twarden

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Succes comes from focusing on providing a solution to a real world problem. Like a pitbull. What you are promoting, @twarden (probably motivated by lack of performance of XRP) is to loose focus on the mega problem of cross currency payments, for wich Ripple offers the best solution, and shift focus to consumer payments, wich is already solved to death.

I would not mind if Ripple proves POS solutions, and at some point they probably will. But right now they need to stick to their agenda.

Neither bitcoin or eth will be something the consumer will deal with. In fact it is Ripple that makes this possible. So to suggest pushing xrp as a retail currency (in the ripple.com forum) is completely out of line with the spirit of what Ripple is offering, and would not just be a shift of focus, but worse: a self contradiction.

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Couple of thoughts.

  1. I have heard that while Govts are giving licenses for "digital currency" like the Bit license in NY, they are not giving licensing to Issue any currency. This makes sense because that is the role of Central Blanks. Note: that "creating" money and "issuing currency" are different. Video
    • This is why if/when the Fed decides to issue USD on network, it will not be bad, it will be in fact a HUGE Win for the network.
  2. I agree with RL's decision to focus on FIs for a number of reasons. FIs play a core role. In the financial networks of today, the Hubs are the FIs. This may not be the case in the future, change does happen, but in today's world, right now, the FIs are the Hubs of the financial networks. If the Ripple payment network stands any chance of achieving it's potential, it will have to on-board the existing Hubs to the Ripple network. From there, who knows what will happen.
  3. It was disappointing to see the focus shift away from Gateway growth, but very understandable given the legal technicalities. There is currently new definitions of entities and legal delineations happening at the government level to separate out a "Gateway" and a "Protocol" and who is liable for what.

I do believe that KarmaCoverage as a Service that would ILP connect to Ripple main net, could provide the liquidity we need to kickstart the "liquidity begets liquidity" which the network needs. KarmaCoverage would accomplish this in a bottoms up way, because as individuals join the service, and Coverage happens across international boarders, the Ripple main net is the easiest fastest method of achieving the cross boarder payment & FX.

It is still going to take some time, but much has been accomplished over the last 4  years. The banks dont need to be forced to use the network, when there is money to be made from providing liquidity... "If you build it, they will come".

On another note, I am aware that Ripple is not all things to everybody, and the technology itself has it's limits. This is coming from people who are "in the know" and who are very technology savvy, way more than me. These same people described the "front running" issue that @donch wrote about in detail, and they described the issue to me many months prior to that, as well as other limitations inherent to the tech.

In a sense, Ripple is what it is, and that is all that it is. This is ok, and I think RL knows their place in the financial ecosystem, and is comfortable with limiting their function set & focusing on what the tech can do. https://www.iso20022.org/

 

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To be as precise and concise as I can be so that I won't be adding another overly verbose comment to the current line of discussion I'll try to limit myself here as I would like to provide an overall executive summary for all of you on why I work with Ripple an the conclusions that I have drawn while actually engaging the community an not just lurking around.  The role of Ripple as I perceive it being a liberty minded individual is that the environment should promote entrepreneurship primarily among their Gateways.  Ripple (Labs) should highlight the pros and cons  of Ripple Gateway Branding, specifically of the internal decisions for best practices to be made during operation such as using the usage of contexts of 'we and they' on web sites that refer to a company in comparison to the strengths an weaknesses presented by the creation of points of settlement via branding single/small operator(ing) Ripple Gateways by empowering entrepreneurs to enter into the Ripple ecosystem by lowering the barriers to entry.  At this point Ripple has proven that through establishing a network of trustworthy companies and individuals ensures proof for Financial Institutions that they can collude with the creators of the protocol to purchase the token which is required to make transactions which are immutable within a public, cryptographic ledger.  Yeah, right.  These Financial Institutions have been known to be corrupt for several decades and many individuals have attempted to expose them; Let them come into the market and let them corner it then let their system fail for us to replace it with this sound monetary system which is based upon individual trust, transparency, and voluntary transactions.  We may then at a certain point in time allow ourselves to consider how we may create new systems based off of the RCL so that we can allow for private and public messages to be transcribed into the ledgerchain, such as what was done with Pledge.club, then request of the current ruling class to recognize the immutable messages and payments made within this system an all systems as both lawful and legal within legalese.  Once this has been accomplished, we can then consider the development of technocratic government systems based upon the foundations of the theories of Government by Holographic Design whereas organizations are created and labour is simply provided for no other reason than for the passion of the individual commiting the required labour for maintenance and development of the individual Cell and Collective Cell's Goals (until one cell may become corrupt and new systems must be created).

Namaste @JoelKatz @nikb @mDuo13!  Is Mr. Larsen registered on XRPchat.com for comment perhaps?  This is a request from one of the independent service providers for the North American that would really like his comments to be known publicly for individuals to base their decision on the RCL & ILP's overall operating environment and how it may affect technological, economic, and societal growth within the future.  What are the honest conclusions that you have drawn about the comments that I have had to share for the past year or so within the Ripple community?  I know that my skills are lacking compared to your employees at Ripple (Labs), but do you like the work I have done with The QuickGatewayKit in so far?  Do you want to enable growth within the Ripple community further by enabling entrepreneurs like me to use your protocol to build the systems that would allow for individuals to create more value for the MAINNET Ripple Network or are you going to continue to focus on your internal policies and directions as they pertain to on-boarding liquidity via Financial Institutions?  What do your VCs and potential upcoming partners think of my stance within the Ripple community and these criticisms?  

Smart people think one step in advance while really smart people will think one or two steps in advance. -Mathematics Professor,  Second Semester Discrete Mathematics Course, 2011

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Honestly, I was looking for a microphone drop sound effect on YouTube and couldn't find one that wasn't shorter than like 30 seconds, so if you still have some focus remaining after reading that then this following video is quick and fine alternative indeed:

 

Edited by Twarden

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