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Ripple KYC and X.500 Directory Services

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"Certainly", "Certainly", and "Clearly" Mr. Entropy has succeeded in being heard.  However, I'm not so fussed with what he has said.

Top tier developers operate across institutional barriers.  So while Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc. may be at loggerheads these guys will be happily beavering away at shared open source projects.  There is no Maginot Line on Github, so to say that Golang is not popular on Microsoft platforms is ill-informed to say the least and at worst -- down right disingenuous.

X.500 is a pre-internet standard dreamt up by powerful telco companies in the 80s.  It was the white pages to rule them all and is a complicated, inflexible beast that I won't pretend to understand.  But I will say that it has had its fair share of criticism.

From what I understand of Mr. Entropy's arguments:

  • Ripple is building an X.500 like directory into the ledger...
  • to facilitate KYC compliance...
  • which will allow "the man" to know who is doing what with whom...
  • leading to the conclusion that Ripple will die...
  • as the masses discover this injustice and transfer their wealth to anonomizing blockchains 

I do not have time to challenge the facts (eg. Is Ripple building an X.500 like directory?), but I will challenge the logic.  Will Ripple fail if the masses discover penetrative monitoring of their activities?  I don't know.  But I will say that social media has not failed despite the widely reported policies of state sponsored monitoring (Prism).  The point is that just because something could lead to an outcome does not mean that it will.  You need to consider the confounding factors, eg. people's enjoyment of social media desensitise's them to the negative aspects of social media.

And for one final quip.  Being a canary on public forums about potential security issues is not the done thing.  If you're concerned, take it up with the developers in a bug report or on the mailing lists.

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1 hour ago, kuyu said:

I think he has a point. Is that criminal?

That type of scenario would lead to a darker future. I cannot confirm it technically since that stuff is not my field. But if his claim and reasoning holds, then yes I do think many would march towards it like sheep. The attractiveness of capital makes ppl stupid. Don't forget Bitcoin also started with good intentions and now it's very essence is in question. Ppl and their greed can distort anything, absolutely anything. 

Also I like idealists. If he did sell all his XRP based on this point and went for something he felt was proper and good for the future of world, as he claims he would, then I would respect than infinitely more than any crypto fun girl or boy. Be they XRP ones or otherwise.Even if he stayed with the criticism, that would also be respected I guess - at lest the stuff I understand or makes sense to me.   

Perhaps you can help me out with this then?  What I can see is this means the flow of money will be transparent.

So people will have to follow laws or risk prosecution.  Which means money laundering will be much more difficult.  Which means political donations will be more transparent. Which means we will have better ways of investigating graft.

It also means businesses will need to alter some practices if they want to keep future deals private.

Which ultimately means that stupid laws that people can easily circumvent will fall, though this will take time.

Isn't this a consequence of blockchain implementation in the financial system where KYC is important?  I don't see how it can be avoided, but this is far away from my field.  

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26 minutes ago, noncomittal said:

Perhaps you can help me out with this then?  What I can see is this means the flow of money will be transparent.

So people will have to follow laws or risk prosecution.  Which means money laundering will be much more difficult.  Which means political donations will be more transparent. Which means we will have better ways of investigating graft.

It also means businesses will need to alter some practices if they want to keep future deals private.

Which ultimately means that stupid laws that people can easily circumvent will fall, though this will take time.

Isn't this a consequence of blockchain implementation in the financial system where KYC is important?  I don't see how it can be avoided, but this is far away from my field.  

Surveillance is only getting worse. With social media today there is mass grooming, data and privacy abuse is rampant and the individual is subject to the greatest ever assault to his/her private life. By adjoining the financial financial transactionary part of life to an ever growing golem, this abomination that already exists today, despite it being claimed as an effort towards the greater good, will ultimately annihilate the privacy of the individual. Unless of course it is handled in a sincere, equal and transparent way.

Although I am not against the annihilation of privacy to the extent for example that any future society, will have all its members connected through some sort of open mind link, the type that we are headed towards is tightly controlled and regulated. Somewhat obscure themes for some of us today, eg. net neutrality, the pervasiveness and power of social media, and yes even the control of the internet of value, will define what type of civilization and existence future generations will have. I dare say that today's profits are NOT more important than that future. Believe that and then none of us are any better than any of the past generations that faltered and met their undoing - from towns, to cities, to civilizations.

Blockchain is an important technology, as it's impact is significant. Of course there are others (AI, biotech), but it seems that blockchain is suddenly the most immediate. I would like to think that it would be for a better tomorrow not a worse one. Besides, to play the devil's advocate, other Blockchains propose the complete dissolution of the broken financial system which exists today. So who are we to say that keeping it just so as to stick a Ripple RCL to it is any better. It is yet undecided which way Ripple will fall I think, so it's worth keeping the issue in the forefront. 

Edited by kuyu

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8 minutes ago, kuyu said:

Surveillance is only getting worse. With social media today there is mass grooming, data and privacy abuse is rampant and the individual is subject to the greatest ever assault to his/her private life. By adjoining the financial financial transactionary part of life to an ever growing golem, this abomination that already exists today, despite it being claimed as an effort towards the greater good, will ultimately annihilate the privacy of the individual. Unless of course it is handled in a sincere, equal and transparent way.

Although I am not against the annihilation of privacy to the extent for example that any future society, will have all its members connected through some sort of open mind link, the type that we are headed towards is tightly controlled and regulated. Somewhat obscure themes for some of us today, eg. net neutrality, the pervasiveness and power of social media, and yes even the control of the internet of value, will define what type of civilization and existence future generations will have. I dare say that today's profits are NOT more important than that future. Believe that and then none of us are any better than any of the past generations that faltered and met their undoing - from towns, to cities, to civilizations.

Blockchain is an important technology, as it's impact is significant. Of course there are others (AI, biotech), but it seems that blockchain is suddenly the most immediate. I would like to think that it would be for a better tomorrow not a worse one. Besides, to play the devil's advocate, other Blockchains propose the complete dissolution of the broken financial system which exists today. So who are we to say that keeping it just so as to stick a Ripple RCL to it is any better. It is yet undecided which way Ripple will fall I think, so it's worth keeping the issue in the forefront. 

Yes, I agree.  Loss of privacy is a consequence of using computers and the internet.  Applying blockchain with KYC capability will do the same to the financial world.  So, how is this Ripple's fault?  As far as I can see this is all just a consequence of KYC policies and blockchain.  I don't see another possibility aside from not using a blockchain, and we know that is not going to happen.  Actions have consequences; I don't think anyone should enter this space with their eyes closed to that fact.

This would be the case if OMG won or if any other solution that follows government regulations was used.

I am sure there will be many different blockchain solutions used for purchasing in future, and those other solutions will use different coins (to provide more anonymity).  I don't think we are necessarily stuck with a one size fits all option. Max can still buy his Quebecois cigarettes with Monero I suspect.

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4 minutes ago, noncomittal said:

Yes, I agree.  Loss of privacy is a consequence of using computers and the internet.  Applying blockchain with KYC capability will do the same to the financial world.  So, how is this Ripple's fault?  As far as I can see this is all just a consequence of KYC policies and blockchain.  I don't see another possibility aside from not using a blockchain, and we know that is not going to happen.  Actions have consequences; I don't think anyone should enter this space with their eyes closed to that fact.

This would be the case if OMG won or if any other solution that follows government regulations was used.

I am sure there will be many different blockchain solutions used for purchasing in future, and those other solutions will use different coins (to provide more anonymity).  I don't think we are necessarily stuck with a one size fits all option. Max can still buy his Quebecois cigarettes with Monero I suspect.

It is still a matter of making the argument and keeping it alive. Also I have the impression that it is not as simple as KYC on blockchain. 

In any case, I like to think that Ripple in the end is what will reconcile traditional centralized infrastructure with its blockhain cousin. Not so as to create a panacea as another user has mentioned on this forum, but for the creation of e a better and more equal, productive and transparent society. Blabbering on now but yep, I am somewhat in the middle in general. A bit crypto enthusiast  - a bit centralization fan. I generally dislike extreme views, so I am just putting that out there in case it helps you get a better feel of where I am coming from. 

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21 hours ago, Max Entropy said:

This will be my last post to this forum. I have decided that Ripple represents all the things that are wrong with the financial systems today.

That's where I completely disagree. 
From my very first analysis (late 2012) of their technology, the plan and the model they envision:
I have decided that Ripple represents IS THE SOLUTION FOR all the things that are wrong with the financial systems today.

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Max Entropy (22 hours ago) In a stentorian tone: "This, my friends, will be my last post..."

Max Entropy (3 hours ago): As I was saying earlier...

@Max Entropy - Not quite as good as Aristotle's "Oh my friends, I have no friends.." so no cigar for your attempt at irony.

You picked out the most scaremongering, tinfoil-hat, libertarian, one-eyed presentation by Andreas I've ever seen. It has really put me off him so thank you for alerting me to this video. From now on, Andreas will be viewed as entertainment only. Just about every single thing he said is refutable or has to be qualified, with little effort. Even the story of the Hippocratic oath is bending the truth so far as to be almost ridiculous. Hippocrates obviously never said "Do no harm" because, um, Hippocrates never spoke English (as far as we know). I don't think that entitles Andreas to <drop mic> and claim QED.

And just when you expect a socratic investigation to the most fruitful path of investigation, Andreas ramps up a disturbing didacticism which overwhelms everything else he says - in fact, it reminds me of the intense certainty displayed by those very totalitarian leaders that Andreas implores us to fear (who, me worry?). A little bit of science and a little bit of black magic. It makes a bloody good show though, doesn't it?

Which brings us to your act of posting his video as part of your "That wasn't my last post - this is my last post" shenanigans. For if you are saying that Andreas reflects your values and beliefs you have spent hours imploring us to consider, then you have a problem, not just in your logic but also your politic and you will need to solve that problem before you will convince the more pragmatic and sanguine amongst us. To steal a phrase from Andreas - you have a point but it's worse than pointless...

If the last-last post was indeed your absolute, rolled-gold, guaranteed last post, then all the best and look forward to seeing you at the $10 party in Vegas...

 

Edited by Pablo

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In 1985, I and my team implemented a Prolog version of X.500 Directory services before it became a spec. I worked in Bell-Northern Research at the time. I have an excellent understanding of the what the intention of the specification was/is. That was NOT pre-Internet. In 1981, we had an IP connection to DARPAnet... running the first mail server in Canada. In '79 we we were running networked data over satellites.That was NOT pre-Internet. 

Much of what goes on in forums is mere babble.

--

Sticking It to the Ripple Network...

Well there are things that could be done with LDAP and Directory Services to show politicians that this is an intrusive KYC product. Running a live public demo 24/7 might be one way. Maybe right on top of the public Ripple Network. 

--

Give me a break...

The Ripple company has scr$wed up wallets for so-oooo many years. Support is a black hole where email goes to die. You clearly do not understand the security issues and the complete lack of professionalism with the implementation. 

--

Several thoughts:

  • the goal should be for XRP holders to profit as much as possible, until the banks begin to fall. This could be 2020.
  • you will need an exit strategy 
  • by this time the terms Ripple and crypto banking will be closely lnked
  • this in itself may be enough... for the Ripple KYC experiment to collapse under its own weight.
  • will have to watch what happens in Venezuela and Greece ala banks

People who understand the significance of financial privacy should forward the Andreas videos.

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17 minutes ago, Max Entropy said:

In 1985, I and my team implemented a Prolog version of X.500 Directory services before it became a spec. I worked in Bell-Northern Research at the time. I have an excellent understanding of the what the intention of the specification was/is. That was NOT pre-Internet. In 1981, we had an IP connection to DARPAnet... running the first mail server in Canada. In '79 we we were running networked data over satellites.That was NOT pre-Internet. 

Much of what goes on in forums is mere babble.

--

Sticking It to the Ripple Network...

Well there are things that could be done with LDAP and Directory Services to show politicians that this is an intrusive KYC product. Running a live public demo 24/7 might be one way. Maybe right on top of the public Ripple Network. 

--

Give me a break...

The Ripple company has scr$wed up wallets for so-oooo many years. Support is a black hole where email goes to die. You clearly do not understand the security issues and the complete lack of professionalism with the implementation. 

--

Several thoughts:

  • the goal should be for XRP holders to profit as much as possible, until the banks begin to fall. This could be 2020.
  • you will need an exit strategy 
  • by this time the terms Ripple and crypto banking will be closely lnked
  • this in itself may be enough... for the Ripple KYC experiment to collapse under its own weight.
  • will have to watch what happens in Venezuela and Greece ala banks

People who understand the significance of financial privacy should forward the Andreas videos.

*waves*

A couple questions...

What are you talking about? Not being facetious. Seriously. I don’t know what you’re getting at. Please explain further. How does this thing you’re talking about work and how does it effect us as consumers/businesses? 

Also, did you stop suppressing the price yesterday? 

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I still don't fully understand what you are on about, Max, to be honest. I mean, I understand some of the technical bits... I've run LDAP servers myself. But I don't quite get where you are coming from. You seem to be suggesting that... what?... that we expose corporate LDAP servers as part of Ripple's KYC process? 

I do find it a bit rich says that Ripple don't understand security issues, when you can't even grasp be basics of cryptography yourself (the thread in which you kept confusing AES and SHA).

But then reading above again where you say: "to show politicians that this is an intrusive KYC product. ". Are you implying that politicians somehow *don't* want KYC information? When the entire political world seems to be clamouring to find out *more* about people and track them more, why do you think politicians would be worried about KYC data? Other than it might expose their own dodgy dealings?

-Matt

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