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XRP-Native token to ILP

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22 minutes ago, kanaas said:

What do you mean by this?

For my understanding, the greatest advantage of XRP for its technology, beside acting as cheap and counterparty riskfree asset, is its tight integration in its own ledger with the build-in best pathfinding Xchange for IOU's what are whatever value representing. The integrated Xchange is what sets it apart ...

IOUs in XRPLedger are not anymore a business of Ripple...probably they are gonna die, so the built in (non-best) pathfinding is useless. Only XRP will be used over ILP.

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8 minutes ago, tulo said:

IOUs in XRPLedger are not anymore a business of Ripple...probably they are gonna die, so the built in (non-best) pathfinding is useless. Only XRP will be used over ILP.

I disagree with these statements.

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Just now, Sukrim said:

I disagree with these statements.

Which statements?

  • IOUs are gonna die (This might be false :D)
  • The built in pathfinding is not the best. (This is provable :D)
  • Only XRP is used over ILP. (This is technically confirmed :D)

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11 minutes ago, tulo said:

IOUs in XRPLedger are not anymore a business of Ripple...probably they are gonna die, so the built in (non-best) pathfinding is useless. Only XRP will be used over ILP.

With my view on how Ripple works between 2 ILP connected ledgers this just makes no sense?
XRP is a native asset on the XRPLedger, serving as a bridge currency. When LedgerA/USD wants to pay, by way of ILP, LedgerB/INR it will(can) use USD/XRP and XRP/INR liquidity on XRPLedger to prevent the usage of (more expensive) forex rates on other forex services. 

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1 minute ago, kanaas said:

With my view on how Ripple works between 2 ILP connected ledgers this just makes no sense?
XRP is a native asset on the XRPLedger, serving as a bridge currency. When LedgerA/USD wants to pay, by way of ILP, LedgerB/INR it will(can) use USD/XRP and XRP/INR liquidity on XRPLedger to prevent the usage of (more expensive) forex rates on other forex services. 

Pathfinding only works for IOUs inside XRPLedger, not over ILP. And I didn't see any implementation plan for pathfinding over ILP in the ILP newsletter. Maybe they are doing something in the private ILP but we don't know.

2 minutes ago, Sukrim said:

Only XRP will be used over ILP

Well actually you can use escrow and crypto-conditions only with XRP (so you can use only XRP in ILP) and Joel clearly said they have no plan to do it for IOUs, because it would be too much complex.

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pathfinding is also going to be subject to network effects

if most pathing is calculated through one token and not every token/issuance/coin it is more efficient

there are too many possible combinations to compute every possible hop and multi=hop

so a bridge asset is the logical choice, one with already good liquidity

that's what ripple need to build: liquidity -- and fast!

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7 minutes ago, tulo said:

Pathfinding only works for IOUs inside XRPLedger, not over ILP. And I didn't see any implementation plan for pathfinding over ILP in the ILP newsletter. Maybe they are doing something in the private ILP but we don't know.

i suspect/predict eventually it'll all go over to interledger (i.e. properly distributed/decentralised)

they already ported trustlines over: https://www.slideshare.net/Interledger/ilp-trustlines

maybe (in future, the "iov" vision) ripple will become a kind of google for searching/crawling best payment paths

sure you don't have to use google, but...

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This would also require public endpoints. While there are ~100 banks out there that that use RippleNet, they don't document or expose their endpoints publicly. Currently it is more like a "walled garden of value" - and the entrance fee is apparently also anything but cheap from what I've heard. Joining RippleNet costs USD, not XRP. And not just few of them either...

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The "IOUs are gonna die" and the "Only XRP will be used over ILP" ones. Pathfinding inside rippled is not that great, but luckily it is up to anyone to submit custom paths.

Pathfing can only work well with decent lquidity so its a bit false to say its not great as it was not yet ready to have a full test

 

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37 minutes ago, kanaas said:

Pathfing can only work well with decent lquidity so its a bit false to say its not great as it was not yet ready to have a full test

The algorithms that are used are public, so it is not really necessary to give it a real world test...

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19 minutes ago, kanaas said:

So what is you base to say that they are not great?

If I'm not wrong they are using IDDFS algorithm with very low depth (4-5). And there are probably better algorithms in literature. One example can be a modified bellman-ford algorithm, but I think the best would be to use incremental ones, for example deriving from D*-lite.
Ripple's implementation works, but it has some drawbacks. I think it's a very good start, but I don't know how that can be ported to ILP.

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2 hours ago, tulo said:

Well actually you can use escrow and crypto-conditions only with XRP (so you can use only XRP in ILP) and Joel clearly said they have no plan to do it for IOUs, because it would be too much complex.

These are reasons that would support the statement 

2 hours ago, Sukrim said:

"Only XRP will be used over ILP" ones

---

2 hours ago, zerpdigger said:

i suspect/predict eventually it'll all go over to interledger (i.e. properly distributed/decentralised)

they already ported trustlines over: https://www.slideshare.net/Interledger/ilp-trustlines

maybe (in future, the "iov" vision) ripple will become a kind of google for searching/crawling best payment paths

sure you don't have to use google, but...

Trust lines are simply dueling credit/debits on 2 accounts (on rcl), or ledgers (in ILP)... so if you run an RCL with Escrow and I do the same, and we both put some value in escrow on the rcl that we run, we can have a temporary "trust line"... if we both deposit some funds with each other on the other's ledger, we can have a "trust line" with more certain funding characteristics.... if we both have accts on XRP ledger, we can have "trustlines" for IOUs which would be similar to mutual deposits on 2 separate ledgers, unless that value we both hold was denominated in XRP, then escrow becomes the trustline mechanism.

Edit: There is a different nature between XRP being a funded unit of account, meaning the balance can be Debited... and an IOU being a potentially unfunded unit of account, therefor potentially a Credit account.

Trustlines are one of the more crucial things in all of this talk about building an IoV. How they are created, and the many ways they are created matters. Preforming pathfinding in all various ways trustlines are created will be just as crucial as establishing the trustlines themselves. Some pathfinding discussion here and on github here

 

Edited by KarmaCoverage

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I don't think XRP is particularly vulnerable to these kinds of threats. XRP is just so far ahead of every other asset except a few major ones, and those major ones are too diffusely held for anyone to have an incentive to promote them for this use case. Someone trying to target Bitcoin or Ethereum at this use case would have no revenue model. Someone trying to do this with a minor asset would have a long way to go just to catch up to where XRP and Ripple are now.

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